Adventures in PTE/TTE
 

Post your pics, videos, build info, questions, lap times, smack talk..

I thought I'd start a thread just for NASA PTE/TTE/E3 Miatas. It's becoming a very popular w2w (PTE), enduro (E3) and TT(TTE) class.

This is from this weekend at ACS. We couldn't get the new motor into Super in time so we tried to detune Crusher at the last minute, unsuccessfully. We ended up with a very lumpy, spiky powerband that was down 10whp where it mattered. Correspondingly, I got my butt kicked by William (in "Nemo") at ACS where power matters. His dyno plot was the normal smooth, nearly flat NB2 arc from 5200-7200. Mine looked like the rocky mountains with a huge 115whp valley at 7200, ugh. William started on pole both days. I put Hoosiers on Sunday in hopes of keeping up (Nemo on Toyo RR) but it wasn't enough. These two cars are built very similar, dyno classed between 2350~2400#.

Next race will be back in Super, the silver NB.

Eric and Anthony (in his first race) also had an epic battle for 3rd and 4th both days. Sunday, Eric out qualified Anthony by .001 !



https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1362426552

Correction:
Anthony out qualified Eric by 0.001 seconds. :bigtu:

-Anthony

Anthony, are you going to post your videos here?

Good thread idea. I just got my TTE dyno reclass back, and did the dyno runs over the weekend. In AZ we've got 2-3 Miata regulars in TTE, and a couple other cars, usually enough to hit the 5 cars for the free tires. Unfortunately all of the Miatas are chasing a pretty well-built Integra that seems to have about a second on us.

I'll post up some videos from the last event when I get a chance... so, who's going to be the first one to post some build info? :D

Super is bone stock :giggle:

2390/130 dyno classed

Big Grip Kit
Xida Club Sport 800/500
RB #54103 front bar
14mm rear bar
SuperMiata end links
ES bushings

alignment
15x9 6UL
205/50/15 SM6

SuperMiata end links
DIY "EP" style air dam
FM cross flow rad
Reroute
5 speed
SuperMiata race 7.25" single clutch, ceramic
Carbotech 10/8
SuperMiata 2 piece Sport Brake front rotors
1.8 rear brakes
SuperMiata brake lines
SuperMiata Prop Valve kit

Engine by Keegan Engineering
FM Wiseco 85mm 11.0:1 pistons
High velocity ports
Stage 1 integral street cams
Supertch light double valve springs
SuperMiata shim under bucket lifters
ST oversize SS valves
Carrillo A beam rods
ACL race bearings
Square top manifold
RB header
Skunk2 TB
M Tuned fuel rail
Toyota COPs
MS3pro ECU
Racing Beat midpipe and exhaust

Clearly that's hardware for more than 130whp. So I detune top end and add more low end torque to make up for the 18.38 lbs/hp I have to run at. That's compared to 16.5 lbs/hp for points classed PTE cars.

Nationally competitive PTE should be 3-4s faster than Spec Miata records. William and I both ran high 1:59's at ACS last weekend. I think the spec record is 2:03 there. We heard through the grapevine that a 1.6 SM was dynoed there over the weekend at a torqueless 131whp. Crikey.

What are this Integra's lap times compared to the SM records?

Holy shit.

I tired of seeing all these IQ3s too. Where are my wheels? lol

That's without a draft too :)

We're about the same weight, same tires but wider wheels, lots more torques and real suspension. I think the torque, or peak power in the case of a points classed motor, is worth just as much as the shocks.

Another thread here a while back, a few mid south and mid atlantic PTE/TTE guys stating they're also 3s under SM records. Similar lbs/hp but way more stuff we can optimizes elsewhere so it shouldn't be a surprise.

Now that my car is right I need to be more positive. Those times are going to put me shockingly close or in front of Eric Foss in PTC while I'm in PTD.

Good thread. If I get off my ass and cage the car soon, I'll be moving from TTE to PTE this year. Car is nowhere close to optimized for E, but did well enough last year.

Last year's final setup:
1991 Chassis
Dyno reclass E* 131hp/2240lb
2001 block
99 head
DIYPNP
coolant reroute
stock 99 header with the interior welds smoothed
stock 1.6 exhaust
SM bilsteins
700/400
stock bars
13x7.5 Lensos and 185 R6
Cheap, used OPM clutch type LSD
Imitation 949 airdam
NASCAR COT wing

Changes for this year:
Cage
Open diff to get points back
Get someone that knows what they're doing to fix my halfassed tune and get me some more torks
RB header and borla SM exhaust
Probably switch to 15s and an E no star reclass for PT... 205 NT01 or R6
Probably lose the wing and go to a spoiler for certain tracks
Keep saving pennies for some XIDAs

Ah yes, Simon.

well, for what its worth, the only time you could probably relate to is chuckwalla CCW. He holds the track record for NASAAZ TTE at a 2:04.444. It was the same day you ran with us back in dec '12 and you got the track record for TTC with a almost a 2:flat. the closest TTE miata time since then was a 2:06.x iirc.

NASA Time Trial


The only miatas thus far that can/have beat his times are miatas with ~145-150 hp but obviously are maxed out TTD/C cars...and are also a turbod 1.6 and a supercharged 1.8.


interesting. thats within the 250 lbs of ballast rules for me of what im currently dyno classed at, and im very close to that hp number with my untuned 99 swap in my 90 with a 4.3 LSD. I may have to do some number crunching and see if i can fit in TTE :) my current classing from greg--for E at least--is 122/2220, but im just a little past that hp now.

What sucks is that the tracks here in AZ + a N/A miata would definitely benefit from 120-130 hp and a 4.7 diff as we have tracks ranging from .8 miles to 2.5+ miles tracks with lots of twisties and not much long WOT straights/turns like cali tracks--think canyon/mountain roads. Unless a miata here is F/I, N/A rarely gets to see 5th gear. So, IMO, all that torque/acceleration would probably own all. I have thought many times a setup like this would wipe [Simon/TTE integra] records, but would absolutely suck at a track like ACS.

i have a 4.7 R&P set sitting here too that ive debated whether to toss in for this situation.



edit*

hmm, just checked my classing sheet, and as my car sits, all i would have to do to make my car TTE eligible is take off the gv-rep lip, go back to stock sways and 1.6 brakes and id be there with 1 point left over, with 130hp and 2220, or 135 with 2225.

Challenge accepted. :vash2: How often does NASA AZ get out to Chuckwalla?

Next time well be out there is Nov 2-3rd. Looks to be CW this time

There aren't any SMs in NASA AZ (haven't been for a year or two), so can't really compare to that, and I haven't found any SCCA lap records either (our SCCA region is a joke apart from auto-x, from what I hear). Like Jay said, the CVR times are probably the best comparison.

Do it!

The score will have been settled in Utah by then.

edit:
Taken down at the request of closet homosexuals.

Oops, repost.

Just in case this scared anyone away, let me reassure you that it's easy to build a regionally competitive PTE car for way less than what E has into Super. I'm helping a customer of mine build a car like that right now.

Dyno classed somewhere in the 128-133whp range and 2300-2400lbs

Suspension:
XIDA Club Sport 800/500 5 points
RB 1.125" tubular race FSB 2 points
MSM 14mm RSB
SuperMiata endlinks
ES bushings
15x9 6UL
Stock calipers/rotors
SS lines
Hawk DTC-60 pads F/R
Trackspeed duct kit
Trackspeed prop valve kit

Drivetrain:
OEM 2001 longblock
99-00 fuel rail, 1.6 FPR, stock fuel pump (standard 1.6-VVT swap stuff)
Trackspeed AEM EMS-4 PnP system
EUDM Squaretop
Skunk2 64mm throttle body
SuperMiata harmonic damper
RB header
custom 2.25" exhaust
custom intake
BP26 head gasket (94-00)
M-Tuned reroute
Trackspeed 76mm Race Radiator
5-speed
SuperMiata 7.25" organic twin
4.30 Torsen 3 points

Racepak IQ3 data system (add'l sensors for oil pressure, oil temp, water pressure)
TC Design PTE-legal cage
Schroth belts
SPA Design 6-nozzle AFFF system


From there, you have 9pts to spend on brakes, suspension, tires and aero in the following combinations:

Rear bumper delete +1
Any brake upgrade (whether it's 1.8 brakes or TSE 11.75" fronts and Sport rears): +2
Bumpsteer correction (rack shims or LE/R tierod ends) +2
205/50 NT-01 +0
205/50 Toyo RR +2
205/50 Hoosier SM6 +3
225/45 NT-01 +6
225/45 Hoosier R6 +9
Rear decklid spoiler OR wing +4
Front EP-style bumper +3

Some of those combos are obviously faster than others, but I won't go and spoil the fun for those of you who want to figure it out on your own :)

Poverty diff.

I started working on my car about 4 years ago although I didn't start racing until June of 2011.

99 Miata straight points classed
205 NT-01s on 8" 6ULs but will be on 205 RRs next +9 for RRs -7 for 205 +2
2400 pounds comp weight
99 Rebello 0 points motor with DPtune flashed ECU
CAI +1
01+ OEM exhaust manifold 0
Borla SM race exhaust and cat delete +3
OS Giken diff +3
Xida-S +5
RB front sway and 949 links +2

I'm currently running a 6 speed so that uses the last of my 19 points but I'll soon be installing a 5 speed. Not sure how I want to spend those 3 points.
I have poly bushings, brake ducts, front Sport brakes, adjustable bias valve, lightweight OEM shaped hardtop, stiffer engine mounts and will soon have polycarbonate windshield.

I think the driver and head mechanic are the weak links of the team. Well, the owner isn't spending enough currently either to keep up with these Hoo Hoo driving fools.

Dat Giken.

I thought you had to take points for sport brakes.


My Setup:
91 Chassis dyno classed (2360/123)
99 motor with MSM intake cam
stock 91 ecu with rpm switch for VICS
RB header
Enthuza car test pipe and exhaust
225 NT01 on 15x9 6UL +6
NB 4.3 Torsen +3
Xida CS 700/400 +5
RB hollow 1.125" front sway, MSM rear sway +2
ES Bushings
949 Endlinks
949 organic twin disk
coolant reroute
Koyo 37mm radiator
carbotech xp10/8
Lexan windshield

rear subframe brace +3 (will be removed at next alignment)

probably try to register it as a '94 so I can add oem subframe bracing and 1.8 brakes.
Planning on going down to 205 RR on 15x8 at some point and adding some aero.
ECU is also in the plan with a squaretop and getting rid of my 1.6 AFM

Greenbaum allows you to class as a different model of the same platform as long as all the components that make it the other model will bolt to your tub and vice versa. Precedent was an FC RX7 turbo at nationals that was the n/a model with the turbo brakes and LSD, classed as the turbo. I did that at nationals with the MSM and promptly got 100lbs added to any MSM dyno class. (sorry!)

So any NB year can run Sport Brakes front and/or rear. Thus, classing and NA6 as an NA8 is OK. Someone could argue that a few of the studs welded to the bare tub are different but it's in the spirit of the rules so even at nationals no one will give you grief if your VIN doesn't match your PT form, provided it's on the same line or cross compatible as described above.

Along with what Emilio said, the 99 is classed from 99-05. 03-05 came with sport brakes on the base model therefore 99 can use Sport brakes or 03 can use reg 1.8 brakes. I can also drop an entire 01+ VVT longblock in my car as a no points mod but I can't drop an 01+ bottom end with a 99 head. I got permission from Greg a few years ago to run the 01+ exhaust manifold as a no points mod.

It's all about reading the rules.

+1

This should be the title of the thread.

ahhh, I didn't know sport brakes were ever base model. Not relevant to my NA anyways.

Yup. Option on 01. BTM from 02-05.

We ran Sport Brakes on all the T25 cars.

:bowrofl:

I will say, NASA rules seem easier to follow than SCCA's.

"You can't change your radiator, but you can bore 0.020 over."

I'm a little confused, why don't exhausts and headers add points? Is it due to dyno-classing?

That's correct. A straight points classing car like mine has to count points for exhaust or aftermarket header. Part of the trade off of dyno classing is the ability to use more mods to shape your power band but you run a greater weight to power ratio. Emilio and Savington have been able to overcome that less favorable ratio.

thanks for the clarification!

Excellent. +1 for not knowing that Sport brakes were BTM. I assume you have to take the points if you ran regular 1.8s in front+Sport in the rear, or some other non-OEM combination?

Yes, read the rule book.

And then cheat like a mf'er because NASA will never tech you past dyno'ing you and weighing you after you come off the track.

Even at Nationals the PT tech is laughable.

I finished on the podium in PTB a few years ago, I was blown away by how little they checked. I was disappointed because my car was completely legal, I should have been cheated up...

I'm not sure I'd read it that way. The rules use the word "assembly" which to me in the case of brakes means corner. For instance, say running a Sport brake caliper with a 1.8 rotor - don't even know if that's possible - that would be a points mod because it creates a new assembly. I could be wrong in my interpretation, wouldn't be the first time.

The update/backdate rule goes out of its way to state:

There were NBs built with Sport brakes, so upgrading a '99 to Sport brakes equalizes the two cars in the same class. There was never an NB built with 1.8 brakes in front and Sport brakes in back, and combining those two clearly creates a vehicle that was never manufactured/homologated.

For the same reason, you aren't allowed to run a '99 head on a 10:1 bottom end. :)

^^Wow, sounds like you've been talking to Greg. You're probably right. Re-reading the rules the other day got me thinking about this exact thing. Above is how I justified not changing my rears too. I'm still not going to until I can afford some new rear pads.

Actually, I'm just bitter because I'm taking the TSE 11.75/Sport rear combo off Rover this week. Swapping back to stock 1.6 brakes to get those 2 points back. :(

why not the 1.8 brakes? 1.6 calipers with 1.8 brackets and rotors.

Same +2pts as going all the way to the Trackspeed kit. If you change the bracket or rotor diameter, you take the points. My car is classed as a '90, so I have to go all the way back to stock calipers and stock rotor diameter to get the points back.

There seem to be some differences in opinion on this.

I would certainly send an email to Greg explaining the situation. It's a waste of points classing a 1.6 PTF**. Tire size alone makes up the difference of going to PTE base class.

Of course with Andrew being on NASA's radar after pissing off the SoCal PTE RX-7 drivers, he might not want to re-class his car.

If you're looking for reason in the NASA classification system, you won't find it. It's a secret formula that cannot be discussed but is totally equitable...just like the BCS.

I wouldn't waste the keystrokes.

+1. Classing PTF is a huge mistake, since the base tire for F is 215mm. You just end up with less power.

PTF** on 205s: 19 + 6 (F**) + 1 (215-205) = 26pts to spend
PTE on 205s = 19 + 7 (235-205) = 26pts to spend

NA8s aren't given as favorable a power to weight ratio as NA6s. I could reclass as an NA8 and get the 1.8 brakes, but I have to take a weight penalty for the privilege.

ahhh, that's the part of the equation I didn't see. I think I'll still email Greg about reclassing as a NA8 so I have the option and to see what the weight penalty is.

If you go that route, don't waste it on 1.8 brakes - switch to something lighter so you actually get some performance benefit out of it.

edit: bad math..

I wish we could grow a decent TTE class here in Texas, I'd sure as hell rather do that than SM.

My shit on a TTE* base at 2490/145whp

Tire
+6 = 225 NT-01
Drive-train
+3 six speed
+3 LSD
Suspension
+3 Dampers
+2 Springs
+2 Sway bar
Brakes
+2 BBC
Aero
+3 bumper/air dam
Subtotal
=24 points
+7 for the *
Grant Total:
+39 points putting me in TTD.

I wouldn't exactly say that. example was Crusher.
just few weeks prior to National, Crusher was thoroughly combed over by Socal tech, sent to dyno, then have Traqmate installed in it for the later race (which it went faster).

of course it is possible to cheat after this regional race just prior to the runoff. but Greg already had an idea how fast Crusher is compared to others (some other socal that also won and podium the national). As long as Crusher did not suddenly go another couple of seconds faster, there is no need to go over it with find tooth comb....

?
Bbk?

My shit on a TTE* base at 2490/145whp

Tire
+6 = 225 NT-01
Drive-train
+3 six speed
+3 LSD
Suspension
+3 Dampers
+2 Springs
+2 Sway bar
Brakes
+2 BBC
Aero
+3 bumper/air dam
Subtotal
=24 points
+7 for the *
Grant Total:
+31 points putting me in TTD.

if I were you, I would run 205 RR or Hoosier. NASA points system really penalize wider (as what's said on the side wall, not the actual width). or if you have enough hp, go to 225 Hoosier.

Go fast enough and they will spend plenty of time teching. I spent ~4hrs in tech at a regional race last year after outqualifying P2 by ~2sec. Weight, ~60 minutes on the dyno, and full engine bay and chassis inspection.

+1

NASA PT rules favor the R6 and the smallest size than you can get to work on any given car. Crusher on 205's with 170whp as an example.

I don't have money for 8" wheels and I can't afford $800-1000 in tires every other weekend.

zOMG, SHUT UP ABOUT THE TIRE WIDTH!!!! I want to win. :cry:

?? you run 205 and 225 Hoosier on your 9"
true that Hoosier heat cycles out too fast. that's why I will only use Hoosier selectively....