Coolant mother f**king reroute
 

I hate beating a dead horse just as much as anyone but im really sick of searching and trying to figure out what is what and not getting my questions answered. Please take a look at the uploads and tell me what you think. Im plan on using the kia waterneck, begi spacer, and the big GM hose with all the right bends. Again the car is only track driven.

I have a PWR Radiator and live in AZ with 110*+ summers and 30*-50* winters

Im really sorry for making you guys read another one of these threads.:loser:


Option One
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1312582582


Option Two
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1312582582

Option 2 keeps the real problem there by having the hot water re-enter at the water pump. Option 1 is the same general idea most people use.

Option one... unless you are not using the heater core at all... then just dont allow flow from the back of the engine back to the WP.. aka don't loop the heater core lines.

Yeah option one is bypassing the heater core all togther my main concern from reading other threads is the car coming up to operating temp. Should also mention I run a PWR radiator

Never had an issue with my reroute up at Fort Drum... -10 degree weather on the daily. That was with a Mishimoto radiator.

If you run the heater core, keep it in the system and feed it like stock (feed pre-tstat, return to WP). If you don't run the heater core, gut the thermostat (but leave the plate in there as a restrictor) and eliminate the lines entirely.

And WTF are you doing running TB/IM heater lines still? Eliminate that shit.

Depending on ease of installation, option 2 will be the easiest. Option 1 would be better for tracking, so since that's more your goal, I would vote Option 1.

is that what all the kids are doing no-a-days? Any issue with idling when that is bypassed?

I live in AZ with hot ass summers and 30*-50* winters

yup, haven't had those lines in years and never had problems with starting or warmup and our winters are much colder than yours.

I see big heat spikes with option #2 every time the thermostat closes.

If you get the begi spacer, the line to the heater core is pre t-stat. So you will still have flow while warming up.

I have #1 with a tse radiator and it works well.

Slight issue with idling with a cold start up, but how often do you need to idle a race car. And if you do, it's not cold for long.

Hammer in a freeze plug after you remove the stock thermostat neck, and bolt on a strip of metal for safety's sake. T'ing in the heater core line to the lower radiator hose and weld a small plate over the hard line entrance on the mixing manifold. This can be drilled and tapped for your turbo water return. You can also flip the mixing manifold around to get rid of the two piece stock unit with the hard line piece bolted to the fender.

All this makes more room for turbo/intercooler/intake/heat shielding on the driver's side of the block.

Option One is fail. Without the heater-core circuit, you will have zero coolant flow through the engine when the thermostat is closed.

Option Two is functionally similar to a proper coolant reroute. In the absence of the heater core, you might add a restriction inline with the bypass, Maybe throttle it down to 3/8" or so.

Feel free to delete the TB/IM coolant line. No problems running without it in warm weather. I assume you have a 1.6 engine. If not, don't forget that your oil cooler is in that path, and you'll want to retain coolant flow for it. Best option for that is head -> oil cooler -> mixing manifold.


I don't.

Except for the missing heater core, Option Two is how the cooling system of the B-series engine was originally meant to operate when it was designed for FWD applications.

I was going to mention that but I thought I read that someone else had. Oh well.

Someone mentioned the issue with the stock routing is that the heater core outlet never goes through the radiator. You want it this way, or the car will never heat up on the street. The problem with the stock setup is the lower radiator hose dumping into the water pump and then taking the immediately available easy route out, right back to the upper radiator hose, leaving the back of the head poorly cooled.

I dont think he meant to eliminate the heater core in Option 1, maybe i'm wrong because he didnt draw up the picture.

go option 2 and return the heater core line to the top of the rad instead of at the water pump inlet.

The car will take ages to warm up as your "thermostat" will always be open.

That is also fail.

Doing this essentially bypasses the thermostat. You might as well not even have one installed.

Routing the output of the heater core back to the inlet of the water pump all the time is not the absolute most optimum configuration for maximum heat dissipation, however it's a design that is proven to work. Because of the restrictive nature of the core, and the narrow diameter of the hoses feeding it, plenty of water will be encouraged to flow through the thermostat and out into the radiator when the thermostat is open. This is why I suggested installing a restriction in the line if the heater core is eliminated.

If you want the absolute best possible design, you need a bypass-style thermostat. It's a Y-valve, which directs water out to one port when cold, and out to a different port when hot. Plumb the "cold" port to the water pump inlet, and the "hot" port to the upper radiator hose.



http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/...eL._SS400_.jpg

thanks for all the input everyone! To answer a few questions that were posted above, yes it is a 1.6L and according to your suggestions i will eliminate the TB/IM lines and yes i meant to draw option one with no heater core.

I think at my first go with this i will try option one and delete the jiggly pin as well as drill out the hole to 3/16" to aid with flow while the engine is cold. I will also put in a aftermarket temp gauge into the spacer and analyze the what the temps are doing.

If the car is staying too cold or dipping below 180* too frequently i will try option two in hopes that it will keep the temps more stable and warm.

My goal is to keep the temps between 180* and 220* during driving conditions.

A "standard" reroute (with the heater core in place, and its return into the mixing manifold) will accomplish that easily, even in Phoenix. As I recall, it does get rather chilly there at night in winter.

problem is i already ditched my heater core :ohnoes: (car is completely gutted)

If you've dumped the heater core the 3-port thermostat that Joe posted is the only option for a street car.

That, or he could just loop the heater core nipple back into the mixing manifold. The diameter of the outlet is fairly small to begin with, so you're not going to compromise radiator flow very much.

Try it that way first. If your operating temps are still too high (which I doubt they will be, assuming a proper reroute) then you can explore the option of using the three-port unit I linked to.

If you are really into modding a high output engine, why not modify the cylinder head to allow a cylinder by cylinder coolant manifold? It's done on all sorts of engines to good effect. You can wind up with much more control of the cooling including paying more attention to the hot part of the head near the exhaust valves.

Because standard reroutes like the M-Tuned unit work perfectly and cost a fraction of what you're suggesting?

Guys, why don't we all just stop fucking around and install Porsche 993 motors? That way there's no coolant to worry about at all. :giggle:

Umm…manifolds are DEFINITELY better. And require less modding than what I see some miatas having done to them.

So your suggestion is to drill holes into the head, machine flat surfaces, create a custom coolant manifold with an integrated thermostat housing and heater core feed, support the weight of that manifold to ensure it doesn't crack, shield it from the heat of the turbo manifold (or the more laughable option of trying to weave it into place around the fuel injectors/fuel rail/intake manifold), and then still perform the rest of the cooling reroute modifications (running a hose from the back to the front with no rub points)?

What the fuck requires more modification than that? I like to think that I get to play with some of the hottest Miatas on the planet and I've never seen anything that is more complex than what you described.

Geez why all the swearing?

If you take the time to look into it, you'll see what I mean. The miata engine is pedestrian in origin. The "exotic" cooling mods some exclaim as amazing really just get the lump cooling more like the low output FWD cars which are part of it's heritage. Manifolds allow more effective cooling and permit fine tuning the flow to each cylinder. There are many factory HiPo and real race engines that use manifolds if you care to research the matter.

You might want to inform all the fine Engineers around the world that they are wrong.

LOL what? If it aint broke, don't fix it. You go ahead and make your manifold breh. Re-inventing the wheel is never easy, but you are off to a good start. Be sure to include plenty of datalogs when you get it up and running. Let us know how much lower your coolant temps are when you are done.

:rolleyes:

Read my post again. I never said anything about the technical aspects of cooling manifolds - I was specifically addressing your ridiculous claim that the installation of a per-cylinder cooling manifold on an engine that was never designed to have one was somehow less complicated than what you've apparently seen on other Miatas. I outlined my process for designing and installing such an item to illustrate the complexity of that task, not to argue that it's not a superior design.

Let me spell it out more clearly for you: I don't think that "all the fine engineers" are wrong for designing a cooling manifold into their original designs - just you for suggesting that it's easier to add one to the Miata head than it is to do a conventional reroute.

Because this is Miata-Fucking-Turbo-dot-Fucking-net. :D

Honestly, I do agree with you that there are some excellent head designs out there which use external cooling manifolds. I don't think anybody is disagreeing that this design has definite merits.

But have you looked at a Miata cylinder head lately? The design of the casting is such that modifying it to use per-cylinder coolant outlets (regardless of whether a manifold is present or not) would be a stupendously difficult and costly undertaking. It'd be hard enough to locate the ports and just attch hoses to them, much less do all of the machinework that Sav highlighted to attach a support a cooland manifold in what very little space there is.

Look, I have to be blunt here- the OP may be a tad misguided, but he's asking for practical advice and you're steering him towards the moon. Rear-thermostat reroutes are easy, affordable, and track-proven effective on the Miata. The problem that you're trying to solve simply does not exist.

I had half a post written about trying to weave that port in through the oil drains, head studs, exhaust ports, and combustion chambers without structurally compromising any of them, but then I remembered that I have things to do today.

I did the same. I have a modified No.1 re-route. I turned the inlet water neck to clear the turbo (low mount) and cut the heater hard piping with a saw, then blocked it. The water enters the WP and comes out the back and to the rad. I'm happy with the results.

So do you have a route for the water to go through while the thermostat is closed other than the turbo?

Heh.

What it really comes down to is force vs. need.

Let's say that sjmarcy has a mouse in his home. At night, it has been gnawing holes into his Collector's Edition Amy Winehouse Dildo Set.

Now, there are a couple of different methods of recourse here.

One would be to set out some mousetraps. It's a fairly primitive approach, but it's one which is so thoroughly time-tested that attempts to improve upon its design have become a metaphor.

Another option would be to detonate a nuclear weapon in the living room.

Now, the nuclear option certainly brings with it a near 100% probability of success as measured by the likelihood of a first-strike kill, particularly if the mice in sjmarcy's neighborhood have not yet developed early-warning radiological detection equipment. And I don't think anyone will argue that a nuclear weapon isn't far more technologically advanced than a piece of wood with a spring attached. When great nations need to assure one another of the certainty of instantaneous retaliatory annihilation, they don't use pieces of wood with springs attached.

But there are some drawbacks as well. For starters, nuclear weapons are expensive and difficult to transport across international lines. And despite ongoing advancement in plutonium refining techniques, fabricating a high-yield thermonuclear warhead in the home requires certain specialized shop tools which are beyond the reach of most hobbyists.

And, of course, it's just not necessary. Mousetraps have a long and proven record at providing successful performance in the trapping of mice, generally without also wiping out every other living thing within a 10 mile radius.

So, for the purposes of catching a mouse in the home, most people rely upon mousetraps. And for keeping engine temperatures in check for a street-driven car in the desert, nuclear weapons are not required.

WTF ^^^^^ Rofl

I want to have Joe's babies.

Definitely option 2 for me. I daily drive my car in South FL with AC, +300hp, stock radiator, and water temperatures just sit ~7 degrees above my thermostat temp. Even with repeated hard pulls I can't break 200 degree temps. (Obviously it would be different on a track, but even the stock radiator has easily handled what I can throw at it.)

For option 1 you have to decide between a. thermostat and no coolant flow until warm or b. no thermostat and having trouble getting up to operating temp.

That was too damn funny Joe, The idea of radioactive amy winehouse dildos raining down from sjmarcy's house just keeps playing through my head as a funny gif, But I can't make one. If this is miata-fucking-turbo-dot-fucking-net we are losing our touch. I am calling all mods to make his SN sjhyper-marcy, or just SJhyper.

What thermostat?? :dunno:

The one that blocks the flow to the radiator when it reads sub 180 temps.

Sarcasm brah... I don't haz one, don't really need one is SF :giggle:

Granted, it's been a while since I lived in FL, and I was further up the coast where the temps are a bit cooler and the average person has finished Jr. High school, but I don't recall that the daytime temperature was anywhere near 180°F, even in the summertime.

[IMG]RadioactiveDildos.gif[/IMG]

Just bought this. Going to try this and see how it goes.

Bravo, Joe. :beer:

Why are you guys so wrapped up about water flow and don't address the air flow problem created from the installation of the intercooler.

The reason for the over heating is from the design of our front end and the placement we all choose for our intercoolers. We all end up with a half of a radiator.

If we could cut our car in half we could see that the intercooler prevents air reaching the upper half of the radiator and the air provided to the lower half is preheated by the intercooler.

Take a look at the picture. The air that enters the intercooler can only exit into the the lower portion of the condensor or radiator. For air to reach the upper portion of the radiator it must squeze between the upper edge of the intercooler and the front bumper support. Depending on the size of your intercooler of course. My FM only allows about 1/2 inch.

So allowing air from somewhere to feed the upper portion of the radiator would effectively double the cooling ability of the radiator.

My solution was to feed air from the fog light openings to the opening just to each side of my intercooler. Since I made this change I have not had any overheat problems. A month ago I went to Carolina Motorsport Park for a HPDE. I am running a 3071R at 12PSI and make 265 on a mustang dyno (what ever that truly is) and ran hard all weekend and didnt see the temp budge from normal. I do have the FM radiator but have the stock fans and I think one is dieing. I do run water wetter and a 180 degree thermostat but everything else is factory mazda.

Try providing some air up there and see what happens.

Attachment 23948

Attachment 23949

Attachment 23950

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It's known Mazda didn't design the cooling system to allow for good flow to the rear of the engine.

Not saying what you have said isn't true, but there is no denying the reroutes work. And for the $79 I'm going to spend doing it, with almost no labor involved, why not? Not much trouble here.

Why not do both?

We are wrapped up about it in this thread because it's a coolant reroute thread. Now if you were in a radiator air flow thread, and we were talking about coolant reroutes you might have a valid point.

So, someone tell me why I'm a moron for considering this and everything that is wrong with the idea.

Move tstat to back of head, proceed to reroute as normal, put the heater outlet post-tstat with the heater inlet being pre-tstat.

Mazda didn't think so:

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1314708943

Is quoting a banned member like arguing with a dead man?



Joe:

Your post is fucking win. I now, after 29 yrs of walking the face of this planet, FINALLY know how to answer when someone asks: "If you could have lunch with any 3 people, living or dead, who would they be?", and I'd even call you with the GPS coordinates to the cafe before ringing up Sagan and Hawking.



OP:

The simplest, cheapest, effective reroute I found is detailed somewhat here:

https://www.miataturbo.net/showpost....1&postcount=53

Someone else had a list of all the parts but I can't find it at the moment. You simply switch the two housings. Then run one heater line to the back if you're keeping the heater core, or simply drop it down to a barb on the mixing manifold for a heater core delete and keep circulation. The metal pipe can be found at HomeDepot and they make ones with a 90* bend in the end of them so that the rear hose is just a straight shot instead of the funky hose I used.

It can also be cleaned up better than what those old pics show.

So pull off the stock housing from the front, pull off the stock housing in the rear, swap them (bolt on?). The thermostat goes with the front housing in the rear. (falls in place?).

Buy the kia neck to radiator hose per this thread. https://www.miataturbo.net/useful-saved-posts-8/reroute-hose%3B-kia-neck-radiator-no-hard-line-needed-46698/
Then buy a hose to run the heater hose back and extend the sensor to the front. Anything else?

You're a moron because the NGK AFX display isn't quite as pretty as the Innovate XD-16 and yet you still chose to mount one in your car.

Just kidding. :D


That would certainly work in terms of getting flow through the heater core. The problem in my mind is that if you do precisely what has been described, you'd be returning all of the heater core's output directly into the upper radiator hose, and this effectively bypasses the thermostat.

If you want the engine to warm up properly, you need to return the "bypass" water (whether a heater core is involved or not) back to the water pump inlet when the main thermostat is closed. You can "hard-wire" it this way, as is the stock configuration of both the Miata and 323 cooling systems (along with just about every other car out there), or you can use some kind of switchable diverter, such as a bypass thermostat.




Hehe. Every now and then, someone comes up with an idea so hairbrained that it merits a clever retort. I can't just write that stuff on demand, it takes an act of genuine stupidity to really get the creative juices flowing.

I can't take credit. I just write what the muse inspires.

can we get one of these coolant re-route threads in the FAQ to save ourselves from more threads like this? If asked, ill even be more than happy to draw out other coolant layouts using the diagram lol.

Wait wait wait what happens to the rear of the motor until the thermostat opens?

I spent a great deal of time going between Innovate products, NGK's product, and the 14 point 7 line. I decided on the NGK because the NTK sensor was the best in the price range, the AFX was mounted where no one would see it (Glovebox), and the wiring was infinitely easier to the Innovate line. Among other things, I haven't had a single problem with grounding or of getting the gauge to match the MS.

Argh. The problem I'm running into is I'm trying to eliminate the entire gorramn pipe and associated hose apparatus running near the exhaust.

I planned to route the cursed water plug's output into the heater core, then drop it directly back into the engine that way thus eliminating both the cursed water plug and getting rid of the damned pipe at the same time - I'll have to think on it. While I have no logical reason to hate the heater pipe and associated lines, they irritate me endlessly when I'm trying to work underneath the car and having to fight with the heater hoses to work on various turbo bits is seriously irritating to me as well.

Joe, is this what you are talking about?

Blue line to W/P only is active when >180 degrees.

After tstat "opens" the line to w/p is not used and only the one to the radiator is used.

Edit: learned to read.

There is less flow there as heater core inlet and outlet are now at the front. It's really inconsequential while warming up as long as there is circulation. The inlet is still at the mixing manifold on the lower block, and water still goes up to the head before going out the front. As the thermostat gradually opens there will be flow as it will take the path of least resistance.

This re-route involves no spacer, and no Kia water neck. One specific Gates hose (shown in picture), one chrome sink pipe, and one straight section of hose. Besides that there is the longer heater core line, and extending the ECU's temp sensor wiring to it's new home on the front of the block (easier to get to now if that connection is ever lost...keeping you in ridiculous warm-up enrichments).

So is there any performance/reliability/overheating dangers to that reroute?

I saw my average coolant temps go down ~15* through 20K boosted miles and never had a single leak, rubbing issue, or overheat. And I don't drive easy.

I even sold my $500 PWR and later saw temps remain the same on an aluminum stock autotragic radiator.

Profit.

Did some more research on my particular car. I've got an Escort GT engine with 2 water exits on the back of the head.

Miata:
http://users.telenet.be/miata/images...rear_plug1.jpg

Escort GT:
http://users.telenet.be/miata/images...323fitting.jpg

So it appears that that fitting flows pre-tstat, and is how I set up my car. I found a hose at Autozone that had a 180 degree bend near the end of it, ran it back towards the driver's side, and just put a barbed fitting (male on both sides) in between the stock heater hose and it. Just another reference for guys with EGT swaps in their cars.