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Foreign powered NB for NASA ST3 and/or E0

Old 09-04-2015, 07:07 PM
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Default Foreign powered NB for NASA ST3 and/or E0

Hello everyone.


I raced at Thil this past weekend in a 350Z and had a huge realization.

Racing revolves around tires!



Instead of spending $1500 for a set of 275/35/18 Hoosiers, I want to spend a 1000 on a set of 245/40/17 and have them last me a decent while.


I've kicked around the idea of racing a Miata for a while, but it's always ended up on being too slow. At least based on my previous calculations.

Enter a new idea:
Engine swap into a NB....

NASA's ST series is all about power to weight, so what about bringing a solid, reliable 300ish hp to a solid and proven platform like the NB?

I called Emilio at 949 to get some feedback, and even though he told me to never call him again because my idea was ghay, I really would like to expand on this.

What would it take to bring some old school torque into the mix and use the well balanced characteristics of the Miata platform to create a well built 300ish hp 2300b road course monster?



I have a decent amount of resources available to me, even though I'm no custom race shop.
I can get the basic things done on my own and have access to fair amount of fabrication services.
I used to be an aircraft technician in the military and work as an engineer currently.
I'm not afraid to get dirty, and I'm not afraid to entertain new ideas.
Fortunately, I get paid well for my job, so I have some money set aside for this project.


What does everyone think about the basic idea of racing a 300hp VQ powered NB chassis in ST3 and eventually E0 with NASA?

Any major pitfalls anyone can think of?

Am I beating a dead horse in any way?


Feedback and (some) flaming welcome.....
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Old 09-04-2015, 07:24 PM
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K20 or K24 swap will be much easier.
Or an LSX swap.

While you could put a VQ in a Miata... there are much easier ways to hit the HP goals you have.
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Old 09-04-2015, 07:29 PM
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^^^ such as?


while an LS in a Miata is a proven platform, the idea of the VQ being shorter than a 4 cal is very attractive to me.

HP goals are attainable easier, yes, but what about weight and balance?

D
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Old 09-04-2015, 07:33 PM
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Have you considered the lfx swap. This member is in the process
https://www.miataturbo.net/engine-pe...-racing-85075/
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Old 09-04-2015, 07:37 PM
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<p>
Originally Posted by d k View Post
^^^ such as? while an LS in a Miata is a proven platform, the idea of the VQ being shorter than a 4 cal is very attractive to me. HP goals are attainable easier, yes, but what about weight and balance? D
</p><p>Turbo</p>
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Old 09-04-2015, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by SchmoozerJoe View Post
K20 or K24 swap will be much easier.
Or an LSX swap.

While you could put a VQ in a Miata... there are much easier ways to hit the HP goals you have.
Have to agree. K24A2 tuned to about 220whp on pump gas. Reliable as a hammer. 225/45/15 Toyo RR's on 15x9. 1:57's all day long
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Old 09-05-2015, 04:13 AM
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Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
Have to agree. K24A2 tuned to about 220whp on pump gas. Reliable as a hammer. 225/45/15 Toyo RR's on 15x9. 1:57's all day long
Allrighty then....

Reliable as a hammer is good.
F20C was an option as well actually.


Would the 225's handle 250-260 whp?

D
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Old 09-05-2015, 08:57 AM
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Hge bonus is the K series has already been tried and is available in a kit form.

D



Originally Posted by d k View Post
Allrighty then....

Reliable as a hammer is good.
F20C was an option as well actually.


Would the 225's handle 250-260 whp?

D
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Old 09-05-2015, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by d k View Post
^^^ such as?


while an LS in a Miata is a proven platform, the idea of the VQ being shorter than a 4 cal is very attractive to me.

HP goals are attainable easier, yes, but what about weight and balance?

D
Although it may be shorter, isn't the VQ generally a fairly tall engine package, particularly for a Miata?
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Old 09-05-2015, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by good2go View Post
Although it may be shorter, isn't the VQ generally a fairly tall engine package, particularly for a Miata?

Im not sure that its any taller than a straight up 4 cylinder, but after looking into it quite bit more, Im really leaning towards the K24...

Its a relatively easy swap and If I ever need more power, Jackson Racing SC would do me pretty good.

Even though the V6 would do slightly better f/r, the K series will be much simpler and allow me to do it way quicker.

Specally when it comes to the small things like wiring etc..

D
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Old 09-05-2015, 02:57 PM
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I called Emilio at 949 to get some feedback, and even though he told me to never call him again because my idea was ghay
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Old 09-05-2015, 02:59 PM
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Attached Thumbnails Foreign powered NB for NASA ST3 and/or E0-best-friends-forever.png  
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Old 09-05-2015, 03:47 PM
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"I called Emilio at 949 to get some feedback, and even though he told me to never call him again because my idea was ghay."

For the record, I did not.

I did however, infer that the amount of free advice I would supply for his project would be limited and suggest he post his question here for more perspectives.
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Old 09-05-2015, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
"I called Emilio at 949 to get some feedback, and even though he told me to never call him again because my idea was ghay."

For the record, I did not.

I did however, infer that the amount of free advice I would supply for his project would be limited and suggest he post his question here for more perspectives.
Lol.

You definitely pointed me in the right diretion!!!

Imthink Im gonna look for a SM and do the K24 swap.
It seems like the most cost effective way to make decent, reliable power and I could be doing sprint events in a month..

Do you have any driving experience with a K series swapped Miata?

D

Last edited by d k; 09-05-2015 at 06:23 PM.
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Old 09-06-2015, 04:45 AM
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D,

There's a perfect candidate for your K24 swap here in Santa Rosa, tucked away in the back of the Johnny Franklin's muffler.

Since you mentioned Thunderhill, I'm sure it's within trailering distance for you.

Black, SCCA approved cage, last run in 2002 or so.
No motor or transmission.

But, it has a hard top. And a really nice cage.
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Old 09-06-2015, 12:53 PM
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Webskin fail. Ignore
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Old 09-06-2015, 01:50 PM
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Rotrex BP is cheaper than K swap, same power and more proven. One has already run the 25 in a Catfish.
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Old 09-06-2015, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
Rotrex BP is cheaper than K swap, same power and more proven. One has already run the 25 in a Catfish.
I think for me the K24 makes more sense.

I can get started in ST3 normally aspirated and later add more power if I want to run ST2 or ST1 even.


My only question mark left really - is how dows the NB handle more power?
Lets say 300ish crank?

Would an equally powered AP have an answer for the NB?


Of course apples to oranges and with the AP you lose the option of running cheap tires.

David
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Old 09-06-2015, 03:12 PM
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I have a bunch of experience with 250-350whp Miatas (NAs, but the NB is fundamentally the same), and even better, I'm able to compare them to the running costs of a ~130whp car during the same time period. Expect consumable/maintenance costs to skyrocket. Tires, brakes, and bearing life will be 30-40% of what it would be in a low-power car, even given the same chassis, same tires, etc. A 220whp K24 car is going to be a pretty reliable machine, but as you push into the 250-300whp range, bearings and brakes begin to wear quite a bit quicker, and beyond 300, you start to eat transmissions on a pretty regular basis.

I would build a K24A2-powered car, get it running and sorted out, and then evaluate your need for more power (and your tolerance for more maintenance/running costs) once it's built.

I assume you're in the Bay Area? Who would be building the car for you?
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Originally Posted by codrus View Post
Basically I've come over to the camp of "If something is a reliability problem on the track, just ask Andrew and do what he says".
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Old 09-06-2015, 03:28 PM
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Nothing wrong with 300hp in the NB. You'll want some aero at that point, and 225's are going to be the minimum tire you'd want, 245's on 15x10 would be better.

Lots of 300hp S2000's out there, and they are very capable. They are a higher-capability starting point, whereas the Miata takes more modification to match that performance level (but with a cheaper entry-price and cheaper consumables). As such you see more competetive S2000's than Miatas at that level, but a well set up NB with equal power could match/beat an S2000, you don't see it happening every day because most track Miatas at 300hp are personal projects with lots of loose ends that need to be tied up.

There are/have been a few properly sorted NA/NBs in that power range that have been stupid quick though.

edit: what Andrew said above ^. He's one of the few who has run a properly sorted NA at those power levels.
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