Front wing
 

Came back from the 4th round of the Miata Challenge after a weekend full of aero testing fun.
Spent a few sessions playing with both front and rear wing adjustments.
More testing is needed for sure, but the front wing definitely made an impact on aero balance and grip levels.

The car was very neutral and balanced in Laguna last month and the only change I made in it since was the front wing.
Before going out on track for the first time during the weekend, I cranked the rear wing's AOA up by a good bit with the understanding that if the front wing worked as expected, I'll encounter oversteer unless the rear wing was set more aggressive.
And boy was I right..

Even with the steeper AOA on the rear wing, the balance shifted to the front enough to get the rear end to step out and make me look like a hero in a bunch of corners.

So yeah, it may have the look that only a mother can love and a face for the radio, but the thing works.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1369638686

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1369638686

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1369638686

Moti

Pics don't work for me.

Something is wrong with your browser, you should look into it :)

Don't work here either.

your browser must suck too...

i can CLEARLY see pictures of boxes with red x's.....

All of your browsers suck. I can clearly see small image icons with a little moon and a mountain. Obviously these images are meant to illustrate... well, something...

Spectacular fail lol

What's even more funny is "last edited by Braineak" apparently even the Brain wasn't able to fix the massive fail either.

OP - please try again.

Massive fail seems to work alright on other forums using the same links... :facepalm:

Let's try attachments instead.

Moti

BTW, if any mod or admin wants to edit the OP to show the pics somehow using the original links, here they are -
http://www.blackbirdfabworx.com/SRP2013-049w.jpg
http://www.blackbirdfabworx.com/SRP2013-083w.jpg
http://www.blackbirdfabworx.com/SRP2013-081w.jpg

Much better. Thanks

*edit: that is one crazy looking miata, wow. I really like how the front "wing" doesn't look stupid (like that one scion with the front wing, I'm sure you know what I'm talking about) is that your design?

wow.. i was expecting that same thing (scion wing) but that is actually pretty sic!
do you plan on keeping this design, or are you still gonna be rennovating it?

Yep, my design and execution.
It's 28" wide and the cord length is 8".
Given that I didn't have a very good idea with regards to what AOA is actually zero to start with (air does not flow @ 0 at the chosen location), I made the wing highly adjustable with a range of 0-35 degrees.

Moti

Scion wing is done mehh... most other front wings that I've seen before are much lower and smaller, clean air is not hard to come by at the front of the car.

I designed the uprights so they can be used for a wing at the center only or with extensions on both sides, so in theory I can run a 7' wide wing if I wanted and even make the sides adjustable independently of the center.

The airfoil itself is a prototype and the finish is okay, not spectacular or anything.
I'll most likely build more wings to try, now that all the architecture is there.

Moti

What AOA (rear wing) were you at previously with the neutral balance? After playing with your current unfinished design what AOA are you at front and rear? I am at 7 degs now with the front splitter and under aero. I have a quite bit of understeer and am looking for some more front downforce, but I think I'm going to try something different that I have seen anyone on here try yet.

The question is where you're encountering understeer.
If it's slower corners, downforce is less likely to help you and you need to dial in your mechanical grip better.
For high speed stuff, you can always dial out your rear wing a little for improved balance.

My AOA angles are pretty much irrelevant for you because I don't have a windshield and you don't have a front wing.

Moti

Its at 60+ but my whole setup will change when I get back to Florida with my engine swap. I was asking about your AOA because it would give me an idea of how much of a change it was with your new and old setup.

So let me get this right, you're running a wing off a civic in the front but not running a splitter?

Splitter is visible in the pictures?

Hmm my bad such a tiny little thing i didnt even see it haha. MAKE IT BIGGAAH.

Not sure what pics you are looking at, but in the pics above, the car HAS a splitter...

and 4 mins ago he acknowledged that he missed it...

Lol. Gotta love a slow computer. Oh well.

Very nicely done! Now hook up some shock sensors and tell us how much downforce its generating ;)

How did your times with the front wing compare to previous times without it?

I'm surprised you didnt go lower to get the ground effect.

And since the TC wing has been brought up. I believe the TC and cobalt SS wings were high so that the drivers could see. They didnt mount them forward and low like moti because of rules.

It also brings up the question, how close can you get behind another car on track before you notice a loss of front downforce?

Didn't go lower because I was worried about altering the air flow to the rad too much and have a negative effect on the cooling.
The front wing idea has been done a long time ago, it cracks me up that people think this is something that any recent time attack team came up with :facepalm:

I don't think the choice of mounting on the TC had anything to do with rules, I believe the original building high mounting spot had been changed later to something much lower.

The wing is invisible to me from the driver seat, I nearly smashed it on the first time I tried to get out of my parking spot, not remembering for a sec that my car is now about a foot longer in the nose section :rofl:

I don't have a direct comparison on any track between having the front wing on or not, I wanted to do it over the weekend but forgot... the difference between the complete aero package and not having the aero amounted to 3.2 seconds @ Sonoma this past weekend.

I'm hoping to get to WSIR this weekend and run the Miata Challenge.
My plan was to remove the front wing for that one and back down the rear wing to reduce drag (big willow is a high speed track), but if I make it out there, it's possible that I'll try running a session with the front wing to get a sense of the difference.
I doubt it'll result in any reduction in lap times as I'm already @ WOT like 99% of the time ;)

More pics of the setup in my Sonoma event recap.

Moti

Needs moar POWA! :party:

I'm enjoying the challenge in seeing how far I can push the platform on a bone stock engine.
No, seriously, it's totally stock USDM VVT down to the airbox, all the emissions equipment, header, ECU...
Only thing different about it is that the test pipe / exhaust from the factory downpipe - back, the cat and exhaust were changed to clear the major surgery in the transmission tunnel for the purpose of seat fitment.

When it's time to add power, it'll be done properly :)

Moti,

Stumbled on this sweet Lotus and thought you might appreciate it. Very similar approach.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1369936184

Pikes Peak Mini!

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1369946082

Also, it looks like Racecar Engineering will be doing an article on that Lotus

The Wing Shop - home page

Blackbird, did you arbitrarily decide on, guestimate, or calculate the wing width and chord?

For width I went with what made sense for mounting spots on my car, and like I said earlier the width can be added up to whatever I want.
The chord length was a part of the airfoil chosen, keep in mind it a prototype for experimental purposes, you can expect other wings to find their way to the nose of the car ;)

Man that Lotus is sexy. I really like the looks of your wing. It looks clean

Went to big willow on Saturday.
For those who don't know the track, it is all high speed. In my car I only shift twice in a lap, downshifting into 4th for the uphill section and back into 5th for the rest of the lap once the car gets back to the top of 4th gear.

Anyways, the front wing was hurting performance in a high speed track like WSIR, knocking the top end by a good 6-7 MPH.
After the first session I unbolted it and cranked the AOA on the rear wing back down.
2nd session laps were quicker.

Miata Challenge 6.1.13 WSIR | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Moti

I'll repeat my previous statement:

;)

Wow, 6-7 mph! That's a draggy little sucker.

Don't forget that the speed difference is from both wings - the front removed the the rear AOA dropped considerably.

Edited to note - also, the more power I'll add the less difference this will make in actual lap time because the car will be able to take advantage of the additional downforce.
At this point it's WOT all the time because of the low power, but if you had to use part throttle anywhere the extra downforce would come into play.

I dont know about real life but in Rfactor and so on losing 6-7 MPH v higher corner speeds usually means much faster lap times.......I think that would translate...?

Circuit racing...but probably not in targa type events...?

and as Blackbird says, very track dependant.

That's the thing at big willow, you're already floored for so much of the lap that the extra downforce doesn't do anything good.
The car makes a good bit of downforce without the front wing too, the splitter and rear wing are still working just fine ;)

So that Lotus posted a bit earlier in this thread...

Took first place in Pro ("Unlimited") at the UK time attack.
(btw it's running a twin-charged K-series swap)

All hail front wings! :party:

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1371148043

love it !!!
for those of you thinking about running this on a PT car.
Greg already said, you bring it, we ban it (or add a ton of points to it)

William, the wing is a nice shortcut, but you can definitely make the extra downforce within the PT rules.
The shortcut is that you can tune it easier on the spot without replacing parts, but given that PT allows splitters and dive planes, it can all be done :)

Moti

Must have taken first at one of the races. It looks like it's in 6th place currently:
2013 Championship Points

Never trust what you read on Speedhunters.

I found a high quality YouTube channel that covers these UK races. Hope nobody's busy for the next hour or so:
Togethia TV on YouTube

Woah there Mr. Doubter Pants

It did take first at one of the events, that's exactly what I meant. Wasn't implying anything beyond that, nor was Speedhunters AFAIK. Their series awards additional points for the preliminary qualifying results, so there is someone who netted more points for the event than him, but if you place your mouse over the highlighted "DR(0)" for that third event, the final results for that event pop up below, where you can see that Simon Scuffham (Lotus Exige S1) clocked the fastest final time with a 1:12.176.

Looking at his overall results, he missed the first event so naturally he wouldn't be in the running for top place in the overall season.

Furthermore, his finishing result of the second event is only poor because he appears to not have run later in the event (mechanical issue?) But, in the qualifying he was the fastest overall. There's 7 events for the season, so the fat lady is definitely not singing yet at 6th in points after only 3 events. If they can get that Lotus running reliably, it looks like it has a good shot.

My main point was that said car is rocking a front wing and is doing admirably well against some very stiff competition in the UK time attack circuit. ;)

:2cents:

Did he give any explanation as to why?

No need for a novel on this one. Neither you or Speedhunters were very specific about it being one race.

Probably to prevent an arms race, especially since you're talking about something as sensitive as a front wing in terms of both performance and longevity in a w2w environment...

Moti

From a recent post on the WTAC FB page -
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1371267612

:wavey:

May I presume that "Scuffers" is Mr. Scuffham?
Ahh the wonders of the interwebz :wavey:

You presume right!

and yes, the power of Google! (came up with this thread in the 'talked about' bit)

Nice :)
Well don't just sit there rolling your thumbs together, spill the beans buddy... haha!
Do share what details you can - what wing? CFD done? how was the position determined etc...

Thanks!

Moti

LOL!

not much to tell, I am not the aero guy, that's Simon McBeath

The history is this, the car belongs to Jamie Willson, he ran it in TA first in 2010 then 2012.

last year he added a *HUGE* rear wing to it, (along with a shed load of other stuff) and whilst it worked great (and he won the Club-Pro championship), it pushed the car into high-speed understeer.

After a lot of thought/conversations/etc. Simon came up with a list of stuff to look at, including a front wing, Jamie then fabricated all this stuff and got it ready for test, we then got 3 hours time in MIRA's full size wind-tunnel to test out this stuff (nothing like enough, but beggars can't be choosers!)

http://www.lotussport.org/download/file.php?id=1983

can't say much about this yet, as it was done off the back of some work for Racecar Engineering Magazine, and till it's fully published, we are not at liberty to publish anything about it.

Anyway, much as I hate the look of it, it does work, but not in the way most people would think, however, it had moved the aero balance forward significantly (along with a load of other stuff).

not really had the chance to fully test it out at the track yet, as we are suffering a lot of niggles with the car (teething stuff from other work done for this year), but what I can tell you is that we have not really scratched the surface of the cars ultimate pace yet, and the aero package is very significant, to the point we are having to change the cars suspension setup to account for it (a lot more than we though we would).

if you want to real up on the car, Jamie has a website here: about it, and a facebook page here:

My part in all of this apart from being the test-pilot is I am the engineer behind most of the cars mechanical build, from the suspension and powertrain package though to the electronics.

Anyway, I think that's enough trumpet blowing for now! (feel free to ask anything)

Cheers

Simon

what Moti said.