A HOW TO thread for TT classing miatas??
 

Thought I'd start the thread of how to get your turbo miata classed for Nasa TT, instead of spamming Hustler's build thread. - and really, I'm FAR from instructing you how to do it either. I hope others will chime in with their experience/knowledge.

Well, 1st off, you won't be using the base TTF** miata class found in the rules found here: RULES

The classer forms can be found here: CLASSER

TT website forums: HERE

You will have to send a dyno sheet (with smoothing) and your comp weight (you in your car) to Greg Greenbaum
National TT, PT, & ST Director
Nat. Medical Director
greg at nasa-tt.com

and he will re-class your car based on the weight and HP. Once reclassed (don't expect a re-class quickly), this will allow you to then fill out the classing form using the new class parameters. Don't class your car based on a TTF** starting class as I did before getting the re-class. FYI, seems if your over 200ish hp, you will end up in TTB, TTB*, TTB** - I'm TTB** with 237hp and 2420 min comp weight. With mods it can be likely you will end in TTA - with numerous vettes.

There are several very knowledgable guys here that can help get you classed... I'm not one of them. That's kinda why I hope this thread can help get you/me through the cloud, if they're willing to share the knowledge!

Now, my question is:
After re-classing the car with a TTB** base (237max @ 2420 = 10.25:1) and mods, I end in TTA with 6 points to spare. The HP/weight ratios for TTA is 8.70:1
Does this mean, running in this class, I can up the hp to 278 with a min comp weight of 2420? Reason for asking is b/c of the way Greg stated my class option in the compliance of hp/weight:

Log books and annual tech - what do I need and tech at the event?

As far as I understand it you must be at or under the 237whp no matter what class you end up in after adding points.

"You must be compliant with the above listed maximum Dynojet hp and minimum competition weight during any tech inspection." --- Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

Also section 5.4.3 in the TT/PT rules says: "If a car is tested by Officials, and found to have a higher maximum horsepower than was submitted for base classification purposes on the Car Classification Form, it will be considered a 'Procedural Violation'..."

Hopefully that helps clarify it. Once you get the re-class e-mail that's the max hp you can run. If you want to run higher hp you have to start the process all over again.

Ya know - that sucks. Can't get any clearer than that, just hoping it wasn't so. Next year might just go all out and run TTU and not mess with all these points. Competitive? No... but I don't have a chance in TTA either. Thansk man

You know a miata won PTA this year right? PT has the same rules as TT, just wheel to wheel racing instead of time trial. If you read Hustler's thread on the Nasa TT Forums you'll see a lot people arguing for a miata in TTA. Apparently Greg recommends turning up the power or pulling some weight out of the car and get a TTA* base class. The reasoning being if your base class is TTA* then your base tire size is 295mm. If you're running 225 tires then you are -70mm which is -19 points. That gives you 31 points to stay in TTA.

I'm not sure what your points total is (guessing: 3 dampers, 2 springs, 2 sway bars, 3 for LSD, 3 for 6MT, 7 for NT01s, 2 for brakes, 7 for aero) but you might be able to stay in TTA but get the better power/weight. Unfortunately from Hustler's thread on here it sounds like it doesn't take much more HP to bump you from TTB** to a TTA* base class.

So, what are you taking points for?

This just in. It looks like NASA has released a beta Excel spreadsheet for calculating your class.
http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic....=39367&start=0

I couldn't get it to load right...

That's exactly what I should have done. He said I could turn up the boost too in a seperate email. Base classing in TTA seems more like it, really. B/c at TTB** start with 14 right there. However, my 1.8 build is not complete, and I don't feel like destroying the stock 1.6 the first event of the year by jacking it at 250/275 rwhp. Any idea what power levels class us in TTA?

On the NT01s, it's -3 overall b/c it's -40mm (-10pts) than the reclassed base size of 265mm. +3 LSD, +7 Suspension (shocks, springs, sway bars), +10 (splitter, lip (Greg says +3), wing), +2 brakes. +19 in all

Doesnt seem like a lot of mods but the +14pts for the base class kills.
Even if I added weight, turned down boost, I'll still be in TTB* - with current mods, that will still put the car in TTA (19pts mod, +7 class: cut off is 20pts). I'd have to lose 7pts to stay in the very top of TTB. That's why I'm just going to go with it as TTB**. After my ass pounding for a couple months, maybe the new motor will go in and I'll ask for reclass in TTA - or go all out and get ass pounded again.

This is the reclass email from Greg;

I sat and read the NASA TT rules one morning, literally all morning. I finally just printed out the pdf spreadsheet and that helped tremendously.

These classes.... weirdly enough, remind me of Forza 2 & 3 classes lol. So based off that, miatas would do good in..... really low hp classes or 900+ hp classes on tracks with really long straights! Lol

I added up points for my 97 and it came out with 22 points, which put it into TTD. So I'd have quite a few points to spare while staying in TTD, especially with 165rwhp being the max @ 2420lbs. I didn't add the added compression from the 01 block, guess I would need to since the base trim 97 didn't come with it.

From what Ive read NASA TT classes are "get the frog, leave with the warts" . Meaning cars like genesplicers will fall into TTA inevitably and he'll just have to get faster to be competitive :giggle: BTW aren't there some crazyass corvettes in TTA?

I don't know how much extra HP you would need to get the TTA* base class, but I doubt it's 40hp. Can you get under 2420lbs? It might be easier to take weight out than to add HP, I don't know what the case is for your car but that's an option. Maybe 245whp @ 2380 lbs would get you the TTA*, something like that.

If you do get a TTA* base class with your mods you would end up with Tires : +7 -19, Susp +7, +3 LSD, +2 brakes, +7 for *, +10 aero which = 17 points overall. That gives you another 2 points to play with and still stay in TTA.

If you really want to be competitive you would need to change your aero. +6 for your lip and spoiler is huge. You'd be better off using just an ISC air dam, which is probably as if not more effective than what you've got now plus it would only be 3 points.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that for guys like you and Hustler who built your cars the way you wanted them to be and are now trying to get them to fit in a TT class, you're never going to be super competitive. Sure NASA will give you a place to run them in TT but to be competitive you have to build the car with some TT class in mind from the get go. There's a saying in NASA TT/PT that goes something like "if your going to take the points, you sure as hell better take the points right". That's to say a stock LSD and an O.S. Giken LSD are both +3. If you want to be competitive and you're taking +3 for an LSD it better be the best damn LSD you can get for your car. Same with the aero, if you're going to take +10 for airdam, splitter and wing you had better have the best designed airdam, splitter and wing money can buy.

Sorry for rambling, hopefully this is helpful for you guys considering TT.

Technically because you swapped in an 01 block you would probably be required to get a dyno-reclass. You might be able to get by because it's hard to tell externally that it's a different block but if you go 100% by the rules you would be required to reclass the car.

We need to start MC in the south east, that's something genesplicer would be competitive at.

You don't have to send dyno sheet to Greg, just tell him what your Max whp will be. You need the dyno sheet along with Gregs email, plus classification sheet to turn in to your regional tt director.
Vettes are not very crazy in tta. They start in tta or tta* or ** depending on the year/model. Many only have an intake and tires. Still a vette so they can be pretty quick, but we have a big weight advantage. Even if we are down power/weight wise, we have potentially better braking, and handling especially in tight or transitional corners like chicanes. Besides, if it was easy, it wouldn't be competitive which is the name of the game.
Also, a swap from a later model Miata must be reclassified. 165rwhp? Do you have a dyno sheet on that? That's awesome na power. I could do without my turbo if I could make that much power.

This is why I'm excited that Nasa now has a mid-south region which will run at Barber. Barber doesn't have the straight runs that allows them to get too far away. Places like Road Atlanta and VIR - forget it. Not enough corners to catch up.

Any one check out the new track coming to New Orleans? You Texas boys - time to road trip and we'll swap rubber at the track - R Compound that is... ;)

http://www.nolamotor.com/index/

This track will also be on the mid-south Nasa circuit.

But, to get on point, I must concede that I wanted a fast HPDE car - and yes, trying to fit it into the parameters of TT is not fun, to be competitive anyway.

Ah ok, NASA classes are hard to grasp at first for me, coming from solo.


165rwhp would be badass lol. I worded it wrong, I was just saying that 165rwhp is the max you can obtain in TTD @ 2420 lbs (or something close to that weight) 160-165 has been done before in nationally competitive CSP cars (e85,vvt,etc) So I guess it's prossible for a TT car.

If you had a 160rwhp n/a miata in TTD it would be pretty damn competitive..... based off what I've read cause Im a big :noob: when it comes to NASA.

I hope to see 130+ rwhp off the current setup in the 97. 99 head with a port n polish, stock 01 block, maf delete w/ iat, standard I/H/E, and a ms3x running it. Suppose I could squeeze some more out of it with 100 octane or something similar.

Back on topic.... now :giggle:

Based off all your videos at Barber this is definitely true. Granted the drivers may be at different skills levels, but some of the big hp cars try real hard to not have to point you by :giggle:

Vettes ate my ass up at MSR-H, they won't do that at Hallett, HHR, or MSR-C.

I can't wait to run that new track in NOLA, but I'm towing down there. Getting stuck in southern LA does not sound like a good idea to me.

If your towing that means your running TTU with the knob turned way up, right? :giggle:

But, to get on point, I must concede that I wanted a fast HPDE car - and yes, trying to fit it into the parameters of TT is not fun, to be competitive anyway.[/QUOTE]

then don't worry about competitive. (for class) make your car as fast as possible, regardless of what class you fall into. there's always gonna be someone for you to battle with. they might be in a class above you, or below but it doesn't matter, all the tt classes go out in the same group. some of my funnest sessions in ttb were playing with tta,s, and a few ttu cars (lotsa vettes)

Hehe... TTU with 400rwhp (440max @ 2420comp weight), butt loads of aero, gearing, and sticky 275s... THAT will be fun! And scary :eek4:

whoa! slow down buddy. how are the rest of us supposed to play with those numbers.

I'm officially done with NASA after submitting my off season changes for classification and getting the result. I added 11hp and dropped 15lbs and got hit with a 14 point assessment. WTF? Turns out miata got hit with a new base weight this year. Yay!

So, now my options are to remove points, make the car slower to stay in TTB, (where I'm pedalling as fast as I can with my current setup to catch the overdog M3), or enter the arms race in TTA (where the same TTB M3 crushes the entire TTA field) . I have no desire to do either.

The TTC** M3 (E46) gets to add an exhaust that drops 60lbs and adds hp, and gets no points ecu reflashes w/o needing dyno classification. Stays in same class as last year, while the miata takes it up the ass.

Spoolin, did you get your reclass? Required due to the change in the base weight. Did you see that glass is now required in your top? Dont forget all the numbering/lettering/decal requirements for a class supposedly for "street cars".

Sadly, this means no TxMC for me either. Yeah, I could run hpde, but it's a matter of principle to me. They tout "rules stability", I build my car to the rules, and then the rules change. WTF> I'm done.

I'll run PCA TT and hpde with other orgs, and battle Hustler at M@H.

Ahhh... thats a wet dream. Ain't gonna happen. I don't think so anyway? I shooting for 350 after the 1.8 is dropped in, but I've stalled on that project finanically - for now.

I think Nasa is biased against the miatas, that's my :2cents:

no i have not reclassed, i'm just signing up for tta. i don't care since TxMC isn't running all the nasa events anyway. why no TxMC? you know you drop 2 events right? that means you only have to run 1 nasa event and still get full season points. who care's about nasa tt, you don't have fun playing with your TxMC buddies? just run TTA. you do know that de4 and TT run same open passing group now right? the plus about signing up for tt (regardless of class) is 1 tech for the whole year. rules stability? this ain't auto-x. even there the class rules change on occasion. you do know that the reason we have to get re-classed is because of forced induction right? if not you would be adding all the points for mods like headers, intake, exhaust, etc.. plus any susp., aero, tires and what not. ken is maxed out on points and is very fast, but in other regions the class is dominated by evo's/suby's. what about the first standalone TxMC event in june @ harris hill? keep it on the dl but they are planning on having their first spec miata rac...er challenge. (can't use the r word for litigational reasons) that day. be great for comparing our lap times. all the other TxMC events will be at open track days at tws, msr-h, etc..no rules makers to shit on your glory! (or defeat if i can make it happen)
don't be a quitter. btw, you weren't at the awards ceremony to receive your trophy for ttb 2010. did you get it? better call somebody if not. don't give up the belt without a fight champ.

nasa did this due to the large number of complaints from non-miata drivers losing to miata drivers. fact of the matter is in many regions, in classes from tte to tta, miata's are winning regional championships and setting class/track records. have you ever watched world challenge or koni (now continental) challenge? from one event to another some cars gain weight and restrictor plates, and some lose them in an effort to make a level playing field out of a super diverse group of cars. not sticking up for nasa, just pointing out a few facts. i know that in my neck of the woods atleast, i don't have as much fun with any other track group. plus at a regular hpde there isn't that whole motorsports atmosphere that occurs when there are actual races to watch.

The 2011 NASA Time Trial Rules (v 8.1) have been approved and were released and are posted online. NASA has attempted to make improvements to the series as we continue with our goal of providing as much “rules stability” as possible.

:jerkit:

Thanks anyway John. H2R sounds interesting and I'll try to make that one if schedule permmits. Not sure how they are going to handle the sound restrictions w/spec challenge. Hopefully they won't make me shove a bananna up my tailpipe, cause the miata is tired enough from the ass pounding by NASA.

Nevermind

wrong thread fail... lol

Since it was Sunday I figured I better use up my last of my weekly fail allocation.

Ok, I've calmed down and un-bunched my panties. I'm back in. Here's why:

1.) Too much fun to sit out and watch from the side-lines.
2.) I get to humiliate at least a few TTA cars in my puny miata.
3.) It's the only track Hustler beat me on last year. Revenge will be served cold.
4.) It's too much fun.
5.) Cause fuck'em, that's why. :fawk:
6.) It's seriously too much fun to miss.

See ya'll there.

Edit: just realized I derailed the thread somewhat. Sorry. Back to shitty miata TT classing :facepalm:

yaaaaayyyyyyyy! :yippee:
that's what i'm talkin' about! killin' vettes is awesome. beating hustler is icing on the cake. my buddy and i are preppin' the crx for battle. so if my miata is still dead we'll be campaigning that beast. barring some weird handling issue from the illumina/gc setup i just put on it, the crx should be pretty quick. it's an 11 sec. drag car so if i can get it to hook up great, if not, well i'll be :skid:

Yeah right. I think that it is good to start in that place. I really love to go southeast. :D

If you're going to necro a thread at least use proper grammar.

Jeebuz, gtfo!

I happen to come across this thread looking for front splitters somehow, but I figured I'd chime in on my classing in case someone comes across this old thread looking for classing info. My initial email was

"Hello Greg. I am looking to get a dyno reclassification due to forced induction. Car is a 94 Mazda Miata. Max horsepower on the three pulls is 220whp. I'd like to be classed based on 235whp to be conservative. As shown on the graph, the car is running really rich for some reason so I'll have to get it dyno'd again sometime. I am aiming to be in TTA (no stars). Currrent competition weight is 2502lbs, but I'm still taking out weight, just didn't want to take out too much to be in TTA.

I would like to know what my minimum competition weight is for base class of TTA (no stars) for 235whp in a 1994 Mazda Miata."


The response from Greg (a month later) was

"Your '94 Mazda Miata with forced induction and a maximum of 235 rwhp on a Dynojet, and minimum competition weight of 2440 lbs, will have a new base class of PTB**/TTB** (fourteen points). Your new base tire size is 265mm. You will not need to assess modification points for engine mods or weight reduction. However, all other modifications, including transmission and LSD, that are not standard items on a base trim '94 Mazda Miata must be assessed points. You must be compliant with the above listed maximum Dynojet hp and minimum competition weight during any tech inspection.

Or,

Your '94 Mazda Miata with forced induction and a maximum of 235 rwhp on a Dynojet, and minimum competition weight of 2160 lbs, will have a new base class of PTA*/TTA* (seven points). Your new base tire size is 295mm. You will not need to assess modification points for engine mods or weight reduction. However, all other modifications, including transmission and LSD, that are not standard items on a base trim '94 Mazda Miata must be assessed points. You must be compliant with the above listed maximum Dynojet hp and minimum competition weight during any tech inspection.

Or,

Your '94 Mazda Miata with forced induction and a maximum of 262 rwhp on a Dynojet, and minimum competition weight of 2338 lbs, will have a new base class of PTA*/TTA* (seven points). Your new base tire size is 295mm. You will not need to assess modification points for engine mods or weight reduction. However, all other modifications, including transmission and LSD, that are not standard items on a base trim '94 Mazda Miata must be assessed points. You must be compliant with the above listed maximum Dynojet hp and minimum competition weight during any tech inspection."

I ended up going with the last option, as it made more sense to pick one of the TTA* options than trying to do the TTB** option. Maybe sometime down the road I'll try to really strip the hell out of the car to get it down to the lower horsepower/weight TTA* option.

I also picked TTA based on the local competition here in Arizona. The TTB leaders (BMWs) are consistently faster than all of the TTA competitors.

Also notice, I asked specifically for TTA no stars and was told that wasn't possible.

They don't want that. SE would dominate MC just like everything else.

You got that right... :)

I'd be game for seeing if we can put something together. There's a small track around Talledega that's cheap to rent, Talledega Grand Prix. APR often rents the track for test/tune for $800/day. I've often thought about going in with several guys for a fun day of testing. It's a cheaper option to see what turn-out would be like.

You wont get a TTA base class in a Miata because of the tire points takeback. No way, no how.

You can have a competitive Miata in the lower classes like TTF and TTE if you work the rules and take advantage of +0 mods whenever possible. That said, the upper classes ARE biased against them heavily.

I'm moving to Houston so it looks like I'll be playing with you guys. I'm coming from SCCA SSM, which is basically unlimited, so I'm trying to wrap my head around NASA TT classing. I'm expecting to get re-classed into TTA*

From there, it looks like I'll be +7 for the *, +7 NT01, -19 for 225's, +3 6 speed, +3 diff (I'm assuming I still take these points, even though my torsen was stock on my '94) +3 shocks, +2 springs, +2 sway bars, +2 brakes, +3 air dam, +3 splitter, +4 wing.

which puts me at +20... which puts me in TTU? fuck

Assuming I did that right, I guess I could run 205 R6's, which would shave 3 points and keep me in TTA with 2 points to spare. I've been running on 275 R6's... 205's are gonna feel like roller skates!

Hustler and I were in the neighborhood of 235rwhp - which the master Dickator Greenbaum based classed us as TTB**

Yeah - welcome to Nasa TT :bang:

IF I wanted to just get out and play - I'm going straight TTS/TTU and do all the aeroshit I can. Only take points for tires and weight basically. Good luck!

for the ballers with cash, what would running a A6 versus the R6 do for points? has anyone done a lap time comparison on... for example a6 225 vs r6 245 or whatever.

I'm fighting to drop down into TTD with my NA swap, but it's looking like TTC.

you'll also take +3 for fascia, +3 for the diff...you're looking at TTA where you'll probably be crushed. TTA is known as "spec C5" with a ton of crazy fast Evos too. I hope you know how to drive.

Where are you going in Houston and when?

With 170whp? Uh, yeah, that's a TTC car.

Isn't that assuming Hustler ends up with 170rwhp, Sav, and not say 150?

He has to take points for his 6-speed, BBK, and the front air dam, AND 225 nt-01s. TTD isn't going to happen, even at 150whp.

Thanks for the input guys. I bought this car to race against vettes, so that's nothing new, but I'm guessing the competition is much better down there, despite the fact that the cars will no longer be unlimited.

I was planning on doing the same thing as Zefiris (I also made 220whp last time the car was on a dyno) and shoot for TTA* since, after the negative points for tire size, it puts me in a better position than starting at TTB**

Also, apparently NASA won't recognize my SCCA TT license. It sounds like I'll have to do some HPDE's to get signed off. yay.

I'll be working just west of Bush airport, still not sure where I'll be living (see my other thread) I should be down there by the end of the month.

Also from what we've heard - GG has never base classed a miata in TTA. Anyone hear different?
That's stupid that Nasa won't recognize your SCCA license...

Did you see Zefiris' post on the previous page? or am I misunderstanding something here? It sounds like he got reclassed into TTA*

The license thing is understandable I guess. SCCA TT is point by passing, NASA TT is open passing. It sucks, but a couple HPDE's will give me some time to get to know the system and classing before I start making changes to the car to try and fit into a class. I've got a bunch of old tires laying around, it looks like they will be good for something after all ;)

All you need is a check-ride to get the license, no big deal.

I can run probably run TTC at full power but I'll need a TTD** base-class.

Hey - watta ya know - My bad, myth busted :loser:

Greg won't base-class a Miata in TTA, at least one * is required. It gives us too many tire points.

I think Gene just meant TTA in general, not specifically TTA without *'s

But still, its ridiculous that they won't class us in base TTA anyways. We are being penalized for using too small of tires? If the negative points for using smaller tires are too excessive they should change the rules, not penalize a specific car just because it happens to take advantage of those rules.

Yep, I've been running TTA* the past 1.5 years. There's a pair of M3s that usually beat me by a second or so, but the rest of the field is usually over a second behind me. Fun trying to catch them at least.

Those M3 guys said Greg gave them the same quote about small tires, so they both had to do the TTA* when they moved up from B this season.

Handy - Your points are right on. I have all the same mods except the big brakes and I'm +18 on my classing sheet. I'd move up to TTS as well, but the wallet isn't ready for the jump. Also, TTA here(Arizona) usually has 4-8 people running each event. TTS is hardly anyone, only one person this last event.

We have two FI miatas here in TTD. They are both in the 140whp range. No clue on how many mods and such though.

Thanks Zeferis. I guess I'll have to go with 205 R6's to stay in TTA... on the bright side that's the spec miata size, so they are cheap!

Screw this sh!t, just go wheel to wheel in ST-2....that's where I'm playing next year!

Did ya notice the new car in your sig is at the bottom of every page on MT.net? :D

Uh...now I did! :)

Cheap R6s, now that is an oxymoron! So what do they go for, or are you buying takeoffs?

I was planning on getting them new... but I bet if you knew the right people you could get 1 race old takeoffs from the spec miata guys. I know the front runners never re-use a set of tires.

New, the spec miata R6's (actually called SM6, but are the same as R6's) are $166, compared to $242 for 225 R6's & $164 for 225 NT-01's

So looks like TTA/PTA classes might be going away for next year. Just heard about this on the local forum which pointed me to -

nasaforums.com • View topic - ST3 Re-visited

After reading that thread, I'm still have no clue why they want to make an ST3 class. This affects TTA because it will follow the same rules as the new ST3 so that people can run time trials and race group with the same car. Essentially, it changes PTA/TTA to follow the same rules as the TTS/U/R classes. Unlimited mods with only power/weight ratios, modified based on weight and tires. It'll just be a slightly more restricted power/weight, they are discussing something between 9.5-10, where TTS/ST2 will be bumped down to ~8.0.

I choose to limit myself to TTA because it was points based. You get to your mod limit much quicker. SUR is a spending war with near unlimited mods.

So now the decision is the lower power to get to TTB, or upgrade the limit on my credit card. I could run the new unlimited mods TTA as is and do pretty good regionally, but nationally I'll be a moving slalom if competing against unlimited budget cars.

Also, watching one of the shows for the nationals, they mentioned Toyo's new tire, the RR.

Phils Tire Service » Toyo Proxes RR

The only review I could find said they were a touch faster than R6s, but lasted longer. Might just be marketing propaganda though since the tire is so new. They are cheaper than R6s at least.