ITT: Autocross (I know, not racing) anti-lag. Why not? - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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Old 04-05-2015, 04:38 AM   #1
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Default ITT: Autocross (I know, not racing) anti-lag. Why not?

For me, autocross is just an excuse to hang out all day with friends and not really something I look towards as "racing" or competitive (aside from beating my roommates. That **** is serious.)

But, I've worked a lot of NASA Stage Rally events, and anti-lag is heavily used to help drivers stay in boost while braking for corners. Pretty much every stage rally driver I have spoken to running an aftermarket EMS runs anti-lag on their car (several running an MS3X).

So, I'm genuinely curious why it would be a bad idea to run at an autocross. Typically when under heavy braking, you still don't drop below 3-4k rpm, and you aren't off the gas for a tremendous amount of time. With a small turbo, I suppose regaining spool isn't really a huge task. Regardless,

I see two obvious issues:
- It's quite loud. Though with the sites my local SCCA branch use, this is not a problem.
- T25, 2554, 2560, etc. turbos aren't as robust as say, a holset HX40, and the turbine blade might not be up to the heat.

Not a topic I've ever really seen discussed here, so I rather look forward to hearing various inputs. Or the hate when this turns out to be some sort of unspoken satanism.

Tl;Dr:


Last edited by Schuyler; 04-05-2015 at 07:10 AM.
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Old 04-05-2015, 06:43 AM   #2
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You lost me at "Not racing"
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Old 04-05-2015, 06:51 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by TNTUBA View Post
You lost me at "Not racing"
Last time I called autocross racing someone stopped me mid-sentence to explain why it wasn't, which is more where the joke came from. Can't win all the battles, 50/50 chance it offends someone either way.

EDIT: Also, as it turns out, the video is of uavjeep's car.

Last edited by Schuyler; 04-05-2015 at 07:09 AM.
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Old 04-05-2015, 10:04 AM   #4
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You lost me at "Not racing"
With that course, I tend to agree. I would load up and go home.
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Old 04-05-2015, 11:30 AM   #5
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Anti-lag is super hard on your turbo that said I'm running a 50 dollar turbo and anti page seems fun.
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Old 04-05-2015, 02:41 PM   #6
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God, that course looks awful.
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Old 04-05-2015, 03:33 PM   #7
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I forgot how good looking NA's are with hardtops and FM hoods. Super yummies.

Sorry, OP. Nothing to contribute. But I do like autocross.
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Old 04-06-2015, 11:57 AM   #8
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I know when I had my wrx there was a hack group-n rom that was floating around that allowed anti-lag with a stock ecu. There was prerequisites in order to run it, but the rom used your rear defroster (IIRC) button to active and deactive ALS.

An autox course isn't that long... I don't think it will be THAT bad. I mean what's a damaged turbo and motor worth, when you're having anti-lag fun?
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Old 04-06-2015, 12:04 PM   #9
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a t25 makes positive pressure almost off idle, and has one of those ceramic blade turbines or something like that which will likely not hold up to that sort of abuse.

so I'm not sure if at all worth it for you.

butttttt, you do have all the provisions to do it with MS3, so give it a shot. I think you'd need to set up ebc/tps boost/traction control cause you're gonna spin coming on the throttle in boost
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Old 04-06-2015, 01:56 PM   #10
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Most of the guys I used to run with didn't want to run ALSs because of the abuse to the turbo. Another factor these days would be clamp down on noise many (all?) major events. I know that back fires from a rotatory have been known to trip the meters and get a warning from the officials. I would assume that the ALS would be a similar level of noise.
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Old 04-06-2015, 09:20 PM   #11
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Yeah no way am I passing local sound with anti-lag. But with the EFR its not all that necessary only 1 person ever complained about lag in my car and he's hates turbos and the lag is all in his head.
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Old 04-06-2015, 10:24 PM   #12
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Left foot braking might help?
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Old 04-06-2015, 11:53 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by .one lane View Post
I know when I had my wrx there was a hack group-n rom that was floating around that allowed anti-lag with a stock ecu. There was prerequisites in order to run it, but the rom used your rear defroster (IIRC) button to active and deactive ALS.

An autox course isn't that long... I don't think it will be THAT bad. I mean what's a damaged turbo and motor worth, when you're having anti-lag fun?
I don't know much about it damaging the motor, but it has settings to cut off if temps get too high.

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Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
a t25 makes positive pressure almost off idle, and has one of those ceramic blade turbines or something like that which will likely not hold up to that sort of abuse.

so I'm not sure if at all worth it for you.

butttttt, you do have all the provisions to do it with MS3, so give it a shot. I think you'd need to set up ebc/tps boost/traction control cause you're gonna spin coming on the throttle in boost
At 11 pounds I can't spin the tires romping on the gas in first. I do plan on running boost by gear if it ever does become an issue though. I expect when I start running EBC, the decrease in spool times will likely ruin this bit of traction I have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midtenn View Post
Most of the guys I used to run with didn't want to run ALSs because of the abuse to the turbo. Another factor these days would be clamp down on noise many (all?) major events. I know that back fires from a rotatory have been known to trip the meters and get a warning from the officials. I would assume that the ALS would be a similar level of noise.
Quote:
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Yeah no way am I passing local sound with anti-lag. But with the EFR its not all that necessary only 1 person ever complained about lag in my car and he's hates turbos and the lag is all in his head.
No issues here. Michelin test facility in the middle of no where.

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Left foot braking might help?
All the weight shifts to the front of the car under breaking that heavy. Break boosting would light the back tires up for sure.

I'll test it out some once I have a turbo that is mine / buy the one I'm running from Lars. Until then, just thoughts and ideas. lol.

I PMed the guy with the yellow car to see if he would share tunes to give me a starting point.
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Old 04-07-2015, 12:17 AM   #14
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Many of the places the SCCA runs are in the middle of nowhere. While they might not monitor it at all local regions....Nationally the limit is 100db from 50 feet.
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Old 04-07-2015, 12:18 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Schuyler View Post
I PMed the guy with the yellow car to see if he would share tunes to give me a starting point.
Post them here if he does.
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Old 04-07-2015, 12:46 AM   #16
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Left foot braking might help?
I went from left foot braking a car for three years into the miata and found out in a hurry - Miatas don't like left foot braking.
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Old 04-07-2015, 12:49 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schuyler View Post
At 11 pounds I can't spin the tires romping on the gas in first. I do plan on running boost by gear if it ever does become an issue though. I expect when I start running EBC, the decrease in spool times will likely ruin this bit of traction I have.
run ALLOFIT?
In all seriousness though, if you're gonna destroy the turbo and potentially destroy the engine, why not enjoy the torque that comes with that decision vs some poping and crackling and slightly better boost threshold?
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Old 04-07-2015, 02:00 AM   #18
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run ALLOFIT?
In all seriousness though, if you're gonna destroy the turbo and potentially destroy the engine, why not enjoy the torque that comes with that decision vs some poping and crackling and slightly better boost threshold?
The potential engine damage being fuel igniting in the manifold while the exhaust valves are open? From what I've been reading so far, engine damage isn't often brought up. Only the risk to the turbo.

I would assume the risk of banana-ing a nicer quality muffler like the big *** magnaflow is relatively low, otherwise I would find more posts on here of it as the result of a 2-step. (Which this is almost identical to but with a lot more timing.)

I should be clear, I'm not saying: "Hey I decided to do this thing, what are the thoughts?" It's something I'm considering, and haven't really decided definitively I'd try any more than once/twice up and down the road for a proof of concept. An EGT probe in the manifold is quite likely if I move forward to more testing with it.

This system retards A LOT of timing. Any charts I've seen of other cars is targeting -30 to -40deg when TPS is 0%.

Example of a local autocross from two weeks ago (no antilag, sorry). I didn't attend as the clutch still only has 300 city miles or so on it. (and a several hundred more highway though)

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Old 04-07-2015, 02:48 AM   #19
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I went from left foot braking a car for three years into the miata and found out in a hurry - Miatas don't like left foot braking.
Good to know; I've never tried it, but I know a few guys who really advanced their game with it - in other cars.
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Old 04-07-2015, 07:50 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by LetItSnow View Post
Good to know; I've never tried it, but I know a few guys who really advanced their game with it - in other cars.
I don't know what you guys have done to your brakes but left foot braking is great in my car.
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