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Old 10-30-2015, 04:21 PM   #1
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Default Let's discuss PT/TT NCs

This almost boarders random thoughts, but it's relevant to race prep since I'm thinking specifically PT/TT builds.

First, why do I rarely see NC track builds? Is it purely because of price? Too many faster options out there for the money? Do I subconsciously ignore them? I know the 06-15 production numbers are pretty stout, so it's not availability.

I'm pondering on this thought because NC prices are steadily decreasing, especially with the release of the ND. I've seen clean examples of a NC1 from $5k-$7k, which is pretty damn close to NB2 prices.

So for ***** n gigs I did a quick points add-up. Points can obviously be moved around, I know nothing of the correct combo to gain power with the 'MZR'

'06-'13 MX-5 TTE* 2525lbs
asterisk = +7
245s = +1
R7s = +10
ECU reflash = 0
intake = +1
cat & cat-back exhaust = +3
LSD = +3
shocks = +3
springs = +2
sways = +2
front splitter = +3
rear wing = +4

total = +39
PTD/TTD class @ 2525lbs

Now I've seen NCs make well into 170rwhp on ego-jets, that puts the car at 14.85lbs/hp not too far off the 14.25:1! Run some 17x10s, ditch some interior pieces to hit the weight minimum.


Thoughts, ideas, close the thread, concerns?
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Old 10-30-2015, 04:38 PM   #2
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I always assumed the NC's were frowned upon because of the larger weight, larger size and some adversity to the rear suspension. They still seem to do just fine competitively.

The MZR's get power out of ECU management and exhaust mods. A stock NC with only a solid ECU tune can see gains of 10-15whp depending on year and what kind of gas you have available (I can get 93 at the pump here in Memphis.) There are guys rolling around with the full H/E/Tune treatment that can see ~170whp or more.

Skip the intake, it's absolutely not worth the points.
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Old 10-30-2015, 04:46 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by albuquerquefx View Post
I always assumed the NC's were frowned upon because of the larger weight, larger size and some adversity to the rear suspension. They still seem to do just fine competitively.

The MZR's get power out of ECU management and exhaust mods. A stock NC with only a solid ECU tune can see gains of 10-15whp depending on year and what kind of gas you have available (I can get 93 at the pump here in Memphis.) There are guys rolling around with the full H/E/Tune treatment that can see ~170whp or more.

Skip the intake, it's absolutely not worth the points.
Yeah, I didn't know if the intake actually did anything or not. When I was doing the quick calculator I had one point left over and put it into the intake.

What if! You dropped the intake(1) and the front splitter(3) and then ran the CRAZY wide 255/35/18s on a 18x10.5?
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Old 10-30-2015, 05:01 PM   #4
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First, I'm utterly clueless at class racing. Let's just get that out of the way as a precursor to a bunch of dumb-**** n00b questions I'm about to lay down

Why 18's? The rotating mass of 18" wheels wearing 255 rubber would be an appalling drain on performance. If you want the width, go 17x9 with 255's and avoid the rotating mass. With my utter lack of NASA track racing experience, I'd personally aim for 17x8's and 235's.

If you get a competent set of springs and shocks, you may be able to skip the aftermarket sways. Do the stockers still cost you points? I assume not...
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Old 10-30-2015, 05:22 PM   #5
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First, I'm utterly clueless at class racing. Let's just get that out of the way as a precursor to a bunch of dumb-**** n00b questions I'm about to lay down

Why 18's? The rotating mass of 18" wheels wearing 255 rubber would be an appalling drain on performance. If you want the width, go 17x9 with 255's and avoid the rotating mass. With my utter lack of NASA track racing experience, I'd personally aim for 17x8's and 235's.

If you get a competent set of springs and shocks, you may be able to skip the aftermarket sways. Do the stockers still cost you points? I assume not...
Yeah the 18s are over reaching. The 255/35/18s do measure really wide(275), but not worth the taller size and weight and probably not worth ditching the splitter.

Common practice says wider wheel = faster, unless you have too skinny of a tire. Since there's several NAs/NBs going extremely fast on 245s on a 15x10 I think a NC will also go faster with a 245 on a 17x10. NASA classing for wheels is unlimited, so 17x10s are a no-points mod over 17x8s. Tires are where the points accumulate... each class has a base tire size and if you go over in size you get extra points(10mm = +1, 20mm = +4) and if you go down in size you get points back (10mm = -1, 20mm = -4). NC base class = TTE, base class tire size = 235. Unfortunately Hoosier doesn't make a 235/xx/17, maybe you could get lucky with their 225/40/17 measuring really wide for it's size

The brand and configuration of the shocks/springs is unlimited, so yeah you can definitely get it sorted to run stock sway-bars which would net you an extra 2 points. I don't have a clue about NC sway-bar sizes and how they compare on track to larger bars, but that's why I made this thread
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Old 10-30-2015, 05:31 PM   #6
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Thanks for teaching me cool stuff The 17x10's might be the way to go afterall. I might even consider going 16x10's, they DO exist and there's at least a few out there that will fit (barely) over the lower suspension arm/steering knuckle assembly.

There was a recent thread over on M.Net for the NC racers about sway bar choices. The general consensus from all the old racer dudes was a high-end spring+shock setup would negate the need for larger sways on this platform.

How many points do you get dinged for the ECU tune?
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Old 10-30-2015, 05:57 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by albuquerquefx View Post
Thanks for teaching me cool stuff The 17x10's might be the way to go afterall. I might even consider going 16x10's, they DO exist and there's at least a few out there that will fit (barely) over the lower suspension arm/steering knuckle assembly.

There was a recent thread over on M.Net for the NC racers about sway bar choices. The general consensus from all the old racer dudes was a high-end spring+shock setup would negate the need for larger sways on this platform.

How many points do you get dinged for the ECU tune?
0 points for the ecu tune!
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Old 10-30-2015, 09:13 PM   #8
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Then absolutely do the ECU tune. How many points for header and cat delete? Like I mentioned earlier, opening up the exhaust and a matched tune will yield excellent results on the NC platform.
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Old 10-30-2015, 10:53 PM   #9
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NCs have done well in E2 class NASA endurance racing. I assume they were built to PTD specs.

NC miata won PTB championship in 2011 in the wet. BMW M3 finished 2nd, I finished 3rd in an Acura. I was fastest by a good bit in the dry but had nothing for the Grand Am prepped Mazda in the wet.

So, that said, NCs in PT/TT are not a new thing. Just not as prolific as NA/NBs.
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Old 10-31-2015, 12:32 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by albuquerquefx View Post
Then absolutely do the ECU tune. How many points for header and cat delete? Like I mentioned earlier, opening up the exhaust and a matched tune will yield excellent results on the NC platform.
Header/cat-delete will be key. Manifold has a cat in it - .






I'm no fancy NASA racer myself, but I'd recon to be buildin' that there En-see like the ol' En-ehs and En-bees.
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Old 11-02-2015, 07:50 PM   #11
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[QUOTE=Efini~FC3S;1279930the Grand Am prepped Mazda in the wet.[/QUOTE]

Did they run the 2.5 MRZ at the time? The one PWC MX-5 I got a close look at had one.
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Old 11-02-2015, 09:05 PM   #12
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Did they run the 2.5 MRZ at the time? The one PWC MX-5 I got a close look at had one.
I don't believe so, I believe they were running 2.0s. They were allowed crazy compression and cams though.
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Old 11-02-2015, 09:57 PM   #13
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Did they run the 2.5 MRZ at the time? The one PWC MX-5 I got a close look at had one.
A PWC TC MX5 would have the 2.5 and additional aero while the TCA/CTSCC MX5 run the 2.0. I'm assuming Grand Am = CTSCC, but could be wrong.
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Old 11-02-2015, 10:30 PM   #14
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Yes, sorry, I'm a little old school.

By Grand Am I mean Continental Tire Sports Car Challenge (CTSCC).
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Old 11-03-2015, 12:23 AM   #15
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exact same boat but was thinking tte.+ dyno reclass.
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Old 11-03-2015, 01:55 PM   #16
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I think one of the biggest issues with the NC's not seeing much track time is the lack of a legal roll bar. The Hardtop didn't have any support (without the Petty Bar that limited passengers). The "transformer" option that Flyin Miata offers isn't a very viable option for most people (no trunk or hack up a spare?). Only Blackbird Fabworx really has a viable option for the weekend warrior. From his ND thread he said he's going to revise his currently design to fit better and potentially retain the soft top.
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Old 11-03-2015, 02:24 PM   #17
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Full cage or bust
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Old 11-03-2015, 06:47 PM   #18
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Full cage or bust
I would tend to agree, but most people don't just jump right into full cage for a track car
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Old 11-27-2015, 02:07 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Midtenn View Post
I think one of the biggest issues with the NC's not seeing much track time is the lack of a legal roll bar. The Hardtop didn't have any support (without the Petty Bar that limited passengers). The "transformer" option that Flyin Miata offers isn't a very viable option for most people (no trunk or hack up a spare?). Only Blackbird Fabworx really has a viable option for the weekend warrior. From his ND thread he said he's going to revise his currently design to fit better and potentially retain the soft top.
Not sure how many people saw the big thread on m.net regarding our new NC roll bar, but using the lessons we've learned and solutions we came up with while working on our ND RZ roll bar we were able to do what no other manufacturer managed in 9 years of the NC production run - our new NC RZ roll bar is soft top compatible and SCCA PDX legal!

Blackbird Fabworx NC RZ



The new roll bar does not replace our NC GT3 in our product line, they are both being produced and are both good solutions for the same problem.
They are also the ONLY two roll bars for the NC that are SCCA legal (the other bar you mentioned is not).
The NC RZ is width limited because of the soft top structure, making the GT3 the recommended solution for those who removed the soft top (the more hard core track crowd), it is about a foot wider at the shoulder area.

Blackbird Fabworx NC GT3



The NC RZ however is by far more versatile for the average Joe that DDs the car and does a few track days a year, looking for good roll over protection while being able to retain the soft top and stockish interior with all the plastics installed, Bose speakers have a bracket to mount to etc...
The NC RZ is reinforced with a full X brace and includes a harness bar as standard.
The net weight gain from swapping the OEM hoops with the NC RZ is well under 30 Lbs.

The new roll bar is also properly tall!
Unlike the ND which severely limits the height because of the shape of the soft top, the NC soft top is longer and the crest is located further back.
This allowed us to take advantage of the available room and make a hoop just a tick less than 4" taller than the factory hoop structure!

Have a look at the pics.
For the sake of the discussion I'm 5'8" with an average build, the seat travel is set all the way back in both pics and the recline is set all the way back until the seat hits the back wall.

Broomstick clearance with OEM hoops


Broomstick clearance with Blackbird Fabworx NC RZ
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Let's discuss PT/TT NCs-80-nc_rz_unfinished1_857a7e5a34a9c320b7a8236d44258b66221c4b78.jpg   Let's discuss PT/TT NCs-80-001_0d2e297c9e117b20610b74799d80b05ba2c1947a.jpg   Let's discuss PT/TT NCs-80-nc_oem_broomstick_134722b80461a1c49f918bd645f88619041e6367.jpg   Let's discuss PT/TT NCs-80-nc_rz_broomstick_b704a94e7b6bd89ed858d7f7569de49f167e5271.jpg  
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Old 12-13-2015, 11:55 AM   #20
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Because I spend most of my time deciding what my second car is going to be in the next year or so, latest idea, somewhat inspired by this thread and some research. PWC TC MX5 "almost" build. Didn't realize how quick they were with the 2.5 swap (and high compression and race cams) and some aero. Not sure how much of it is tires (R1 S vs Pirelli), but it's on average something like 5-6 seconds faster than MX5 Cup. A full 10 seconds on Road America (2:37 vs 2:27). That's haulin' the mail. Considering I'd be driving to/from the track and teh monehz, I'd probably be sticking with stock compression and mild cams, but a man can dream.
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