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Old 10-02-2011, 12:28 AM   #1
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Default Oil Coolers, general heat for 200whp

Next summer I plan to start tracking the car again. At that point I am planning for @200whp. The car will be intercooled, so I will have a minimum of 4 heat exchangers - radiator, condenser, S/C oil cooler, and the intercooler.

I am planning on running the TDR intercooler, with their ducting (or a variant) so the heat exchanger stack will be ducted. I have 2/3 Cobra's radiator shroud and will be running two of the 1100CFM Spal fans with it. Probably a koyo 37mm radiator as well to replace the stock unit.

So, an oil cooler. Assuming I am keeping everything else cool, am I going to need one? The part of me that wants to over-engineer reliability says to just do it.

Let's assume I do need one. How much of one for 200hp? Assuming coolant temps are under control.

Real estate in my bumper area is becoming quite precious. I am not willing at this point to ventilate or otherwise carve openings into my front bumper, that will not pass the Ms Mobius test, nor my own "keep it stock looking" test. Adding a 5th heat exchanger into my stack will be tough.

Options I've come up with so far:
a) RX7 cooler. Seems popular and effective. Built-in thermostat. Doesn't necessarily need to be in direct airflow - correct?

b) Small cooler with a fan, such as : http://www.proracestore.com/index.ph...sourceid=GPPRS
5" with a shrouded spal fan. Small enough to mount out of the way. Fan should give it enough thermal capacity to take the edge off. Advantages - small, easier to locate, doesn't need to be directly in the high pressure airflow due to fan. Disadvantages - small, does it have enough capacity.

Actually, thinking about this one more, seems I could mount it where for track days I could remove a fog light and feed it from there. Fresh air + fan = win?

c) replace my current S/C oil cooler with a dual circuit cooler. Run S/C oil through the smaller side, and the engine oil through the larger, such as this one:
http://www.jegs.com/i/Derale/259/15230/10002/-1

I could mount a fanless one in the stack, or use the fanned version and mount that one horizontally, having it vent down through slots in the undertray. I don't like the exposure to damage having it down low like that though. LukeH's rotrex over at m.net has the S/C oil cooler down low, but that makes me nervous.

Thoughts/ideas/opinions? A/C is staying on the car. I want this to be a daily driver that is a moderately powered track weapon. Only thing I want to manage at the track is fuel, tires, and brake pads.
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Old 10-02-2011, 01:15 AM   #2
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Next summer I plan to start tracking the car again. At that point I am planning for @200whp. The car will be intercooled, so I will have a minimum of 4 heat exchangers - radiator, condenser, S/C oil cooler, and the intercooler.

I am planning on running the TDR intercooler, with their ducting (or a variant) so the heat exchanger stack will be ducted. I have 2/3 Cobra's radiator shroud and will be running two of the 1100CFM Spal fans with it. Probably a koyo 37mm radiator as well to replace the stock unit.
Let's start here - you aren't going to keep a 200whp car cool with a rear-shrouded 37mm Koyo, especially with A/C. You need a 55mm Koyo, or preferrably our 76mm twin-core unit. Our unit will definitely keep it cool - a Koyo may struggle in 100*F temps.

Quote:
So, an oil cooler. Assuming I am keeping everything else cool, am I going to need one? The part of me that wants to over-engineer reliability says to just do it.

Let's assume I do need one. How much of one for 200hp? Assuming coolant temps are under control.
Enough to keep the oil temps down to ~250*F in 100*F weather.

Quote:
Real estate in my bumper area is becoming quite precious. I am not willing at this point to ventilate or otherwise carve openings into my front bumper, that will not pass the Ms Mobius test, nor my own "keep it stock looking" test. Adding a 5th heat exchanger into my stack will be tough.

Options I've come up with so far:
a) RX7 cooler. Seems popular and effective. Built-in thermostat. Doesn't necessarily need to be in direct airflow - correct?

b) Small cooler with a fan, such as : http://www.proracestore.com/index.ph...sourceid=GPPRS
5" with a shrouded spal fan. Small enough to mount out of the way. Fan should give it enough thermal capacity to take the edge off. Advantages - small, easier to locate, doesn't need to be directly in the high pressure airflow due to fan. Disadvantages - small, does it have enough capacity.

Actually, thinking about this one more, seems I could mount it where for track days I could remove a fog light and feed it from there. Fresh air + fan = win?

c) replace my current S/C oil cooler with a dual circuit cooler. Run S/C oil through the smaller side, and the engine oil through the larger, such as this one:
http://www.jegs.com/i/Derale/259/15230/10002/-1

I could mount a fanless one in the stack, or use the fanned version and mount that one horizontally, having it vent down through slots in the undertray. I don't like the exposure to damage having it down low like that though. LukeH's rotrex over at m.net has the S/C oil cooler down low, but that makes me nervous.

Thoughts/ideas/opinions? A/C is staying on the car. I want this to be a daily driver that is a moderately powered track weapon. Only thing I want to manage at the track is fuel, tires, and brake pads.
Look into mounting something between the intercooler and radiator. The oil cooler is much less picky about airflow and efficiency than the IC or radiator are - with the radiator you're removing a huge amount of heat, and with the IC you're trying to remove a significant portion of the heat that is produced. Without an oil cooler, you might see temps of ~300*F, which is definitely too hot, but you don't need to knock them down to the 150*F range. You just need a 15% drop, which is easy to achieve without too much thought put into airflow management. Just oversize the core a bit and stick it wherever is most convenient.
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Old 10-02-2011, 03:44 AM   #3
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What's a good size core for this application? Curious as I'm going to be in this pickle myself next Spring.

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Old 10-02-2011, 04:09 AM   #4
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Couple people have put one in front of the front wheels, check igorr's build thread (I think) and thesnowboarder before he put a rx7 cooler in.

I have roughly the same HP, a 55mm radiator and a 24 row oil cooler. No ac though, or additional S/C cooler, driving conservatively on all-season tires. It seemed to work fine for keeping temps at or below 250* in the two track days it's seen, one 60-70* day at PIR one 70-80* day at ORP. It gets fresh air though, along with my radiator being ducting and heat extracted.

Which track are you planning on racing at? PIR is cooler in general but tough on brakes and cooling. ORP is hot being in eastern OR but there's much less full throttle time.
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Old 10-02-2011, 08:01 PM   #5
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PIR and ORP will be the two tracks I run at. It's doubtful I'll be able to do anything farther than ORP.

Quote:
Let's start here - you aren't going to keep a 200whp car cool with a rear-shrouded 37mm Koyo, especially with A/C. You need a 55mm Koyo, or preferrably our 76mm twin-core unit. Our unit will definitely keep it cool - a Koyo may struggle in 100*F temps.
To clarify, the heat exchangers will be ducted and sealed to the mouth opening. There will be no spillage of air, it will all have to pass through the radiator. I agree the Trackspeed radiator or one of the other crossflow radiators would be an excellent solution but I'd like to stick with stock dimensions to avoid having to re-engineer the TDR intercooler installation. My two main reasons for going with that one (besides that the IC core is a good one) is for the mounting and ducting engineering that's already been done - brackets and ducting/sealing pieces are part of the install, and it's over-the-top for the intake plumbing, so I don't have to hack my undertray. I believe in the pressure differential benefits of the undertray, and the roads here are wet so much of the year I'd like to keep it as intact as possible.

If I change my radiator footprint I'll end up having to DIY my whole intercooler installation. Which is doable, but I'd like to avoid a cascade of changes due to unintended consequences. Unless the Trackspeed unit is compatible with the TDR intercooler? I thought I saw that it was not.

So even with airflow ducted and sealed, and with two hi-flow spal fans, the 37mm will not be enough?
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Old 10-02-2011, 08:32 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mobius View Post



My two main reasons for going with that one (besides that the IC core is a good one) is for the mounting and ducting engineering that's already been done - brackets and ducting/sealing pieces are part of the install, and it's over-the-top for the intake plumbing, so I don't have to hack my undertray. I believe in the pressure differential benefits of the undertray, and the roads here are wet so much of the year I'd like to keep it as intact as possible.

If I change my radiator footprint I'll end up having to DIY my whole intercooler installation. Which is doable, but I'd like to avoid a cascade of changes due to unintended consequences. Unless the Trackspeed unit is compatible with the TDR intercooler? I thought I saw that it was not.

So even with airflow ducted and sealed, and with two hi-flow spal fans, the 37mm will not be enough?
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think fans are going to do **** for you when you're at high speeds on track if your radiator is too small to get rid of excess heat fast enough.

The better solution would be to ditch the undertray and fab up your own, which is what a LOT of people here have done. Hacking your undertray for IC pipes doesn't mean it will suddenly become ineffective, you seal around the IC pipes. IMO what you're doing is ending up with a few bandaids when you could just rearrange some stuff and do it the right way. It would get rid of the "what ifs".
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Old 10-02-2011, 09:18 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mobius View Post
To clarify, the heat exchangers will be ducted and sealed to the mouth opening. There will be no spillage of air, it will all have to pass through the radiator. I agree the Trackspeed radiator or one of the other crossflow radiators would be an excellent solution but I'd like to stick with stock dimensions to avoid having to re-engineer the TDR intercooler installation. My two main reasons for going with that one (besides that the IC core is a good one) is for the mounting and ducting engineering that's already been done - brackets and ducting/sealing pieces are part of the install, and it's over-the-top for the intake plumbing, so I don't have to hack my undertray. I believe in the pressure differential benefits of the undertray, and the roads here are wet so much of the year I'd like to keep it as intact as possible.

If I change my radiator footprint I'll end up having to DIY my whole intercooler installation. Which is doable, but I'd like to avoid a cascade of changes due to unintended consequences. Unless the Trackspeed unit is compatible with the TDR intercooler? I thought I saw that it was not.

So even with airflow ducted and sealed, and with two hi-flow spal fans, the 37mm will not be enough?
No, I don't think it will be.

I have no idea whether our radiator is compatible with the TDR intercooler kit. Our radiator extends down to the undertray a little closer, but other than that it retains stock height/width dimension. The depth dimension is obviously thicker, but that's true for all aftermarket radiators.

I'd rather have small notches cut for IC pipes in the sides of the undertray vs. the notches cut in the top of the radiator panel like the TDR setup has.
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Old 10-02-2011, 09:34 PM   #8
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Make sure you post a build thread. This is basically what I'm going to be shooting for 200WHP S/C track car.

For the oil temps where is that measured typically? At the filter or in the sump?
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Old 10-02-2011, 09:37 PM   #9
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Well those are the two choices. People seem to go with whichever is most convenient for them to hook up, from what I've seen. Mine is taken at the filter.
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Old 10-03-2011, 01:44 PM   #10
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So even with airflow ducted and sealed, and with two hi-flow spal fans, the 37mm will not be enough?

That is correct. Sorry.

I only run my low boost setting at the track for reliability reasons - 180 whp, and I have a ducted 37mm Koyo, no A/C condenser in the way like you have, and a Trucool 24-row oil cooler. I was OK with this setup in 85* heat, but at 100* ambient, I was unable to keep the car cool enough to enjoy a session. I am now saving up for TSE's radiator.

-Ryan
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Old 10-03-2011, 03:18 PM   #11
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I can't remember the last time I was worried about coolant temps on the track - and that's at 330-350whp.

Here's 8 laps at Willow Springs in 95*+ temps.

(start at 1:45 if you don't want to see me do the world's most boring warm-up lap)
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Old 10-03-2011, 08:53 PM   #12
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Awesome laps Andrew.

I'm going to be calling you to place an order for a TSE radiator in about a week and a half

What are you doing/turning on/adjusting at 2:40 in that video?
Also, what's the story behind the fun looking slide at 10:10? Looked like a late downshift, or just greasy tires?

-Ryan
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Old 10-03-2011, 10:11 PM   #13
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We should change your name to Savingdrift!
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Old 10-04-2011, 08:07 AM   #14
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Flipping pages on the Racepak at 2:40. Greasy tires at 10:10 - just overcooked the entry a bit and had to give the tires the rest of the lap to cool down.

Peak CLT was 219*F. Typical CLTs were 210-215*F for the session. 109*F IAT idling in the pits before the session, peak IATs of 136*F on the front stretch and back stretch. (front stretch is a full 5-6 pull to the rev limiter in 6th)
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Old 10-04-2011, 09:04 AM   #15
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We should change your name to Savingslow!
Ftfy
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Old 10-04-2011, 10:19 AM   #16
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Doesn't Hustler use a stock sized radiator?
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Old 10-04-2011, 10:50 AM   #17
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TSE's triple pass as far as I know, look a few pictures back on his build thread, no way thats stock. He's at least 2".



(That's what she said)
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Old 10-04-2011, 11:39 AM   #18
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Anyone check out Mishimoto's triple pass radiator?
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Old 10-04-2011, 12:04 PM   #19
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Doesn't Hustler use a stock sized radiator?
yea right. my stock radiator could barely keep up on stock power. hell it shat itself 1 week after my 1st track day.
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Old 10-04-2011, 01:54 PM   #20
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Doesn't Hustler use a stock sized radiator?
I've heard that it is the CXRacing 55mm, but that is unconfirmed, and from the quality of the rest of his build that would surprise me. Either way, it is most certainly not stock.
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