wagnerov

All prototypes that utilized a front wing until the Jaguar XJR-14 (perhaps with some exceptions like the Grid S1 from the early 80's) were what I would call "bad implementations." The front wing on the 962 would force the flow to detach over the cockpit and engine cover, and engineers would make up for this adding more rear wing -- creating more drag. The Brun 962 photographed above isn't a good example of what many P-cars in the 80's ran for a front wing...when I was a kid I saw much larger front wings on GTP's at Sears Point. Front wings were pretty much gone before the end of the GTP/Group C era and never came back.

Perhaps my "purple pole" comment was a bit harsh and I didn't mean to impugn the quality of workmanship on Creampuff or any other car. But I seriously doubt any meaningful gains were made by adding that front wing. Even if one moved it forward and lower, durability and cooling become an issue (maybe not an issue in time attack/time trials). Then you need the pow-ahhh to move all that air around. If I missed a CFD analysis of the Miata front wing and its placement somewhere in this thread, I apologize.

I hate to say it, but that BMW TT3 placed the front wing in the best practical AND possible place....theoretically.

Scaxx

I'm just going to post up Moti's thread from the locost forums. I really believe Moti knows what he's doing and if he didn't experience results from it I doubt he would continue to run the front wing. This isn't bench racing after all, he actually used the set up and it performed well for him. Most the way down the first page is where his front wing comes into play.

LocostUSA.com ? View topic - Moti's Miata race car, AKA Creampuff

Blackbird

Wagnerov, when I built the FWing I didn't plan on spending thousands of dollars on CFD to prove the point that it works because some one some day on some forum will need to see some form of computer output to believe that this is real.
I looked up a profile, built it out of Balsa and FG and went out to test it, and after dicking around with the AOA for a few sessions around Sonoma, I can assure you that it worked and made significant gains in lap times.
Was it optimal? Hell no. But there are plenty of sub-optimal things that work, this was one of them.

Now whether you decide to believe it or dismiss it, doesn't change my life one bit... YMMV.

Blackbird

There's a much bigger build log form Creampuff on CR -
The Blackbird Fabworx Time Attack Build - Creampuff - ClubRoadster.net

It's hasn't seen much updating recently because Morpheus is getting all the loving.
FWIW, I don't disagree with Wagnerov statement that there are gains to be made with a better splitter.
I ended up ditching the FWing after I built a larger splitter with bigger diffusers for Creampuff (was on Morpheus for MRLS), front grip felt similar but with less drag.

wagnerov

Thanks for posting the threads. I do stand corrected then when it comes to a front wing on a Miata.

One thing I think we can all agree on is an effective splitter sure looks a lot more graceful than a front wing on a former street car.

Put a front wing on a Catfish, and it would turn into an Anglerfish...

Blackbird

Yeah, that FWing was a face only a mother can love.

mekilljoydammit

I think the front wing 962s and such are evidence that even a bad implementation can bandaid aero balance. Until Nissan started showing the way with front diffusers (possibly others but I'm going to be lazy and go with the earliest one I can think of) it seems like none of the GTP or Group C chassis were designed with front downforce anywhere on the design brief, and the teams were scrambling for anything they could get. The old lobster claw March cars also seemed like a relatively decent pre-XJR-14 front wing implementation, or at least for the early 80s, but it's not like I've seen them in a wind tunnel.

wagnerov

That Nissan (post-Lola) design never had a front wing either. I completely forgot about that car (talk about missing the forest for the trees). It was just as much of a landmark in aero development as the Jag.

​​​​​​

Blackbird

Agreed on both the Lobster claw and the Nissan.

Christian Ramos Garzon

I work in the aerodynamics department of a race team, what happens with front wing and rear wings on racecars is that it really depends on a lot of stuff, it depends on regulations, aero balance, weight distribution, drag, lift, flow etc... most of le mans prototypes use the under body (front splitter), bodywork and canards to generate front downforce, the front splitter isn't flat, the front splitter in these cars have a profile shape (normally just in the area in front of the tires), the front of the car have cutouts or even the body work itself slow down the air that is going over it hence creating the necessary downforce. In order to generate downforce the interaction with flow must be minimal (obviously you want the air to interact as much as necessary with the underside of the wing), there is no point of using a profile (wing) in front of the car if the air that goes under the wing have to go over the car immediately in an agressive way, that would cause flow separation, unnecesary turbulence and drag, plus it would have to be quite big unless you use it to feed the diffuser (underbody) or something like a front mounted radiator that can be done with a less agressive profile (maybe integrated in the bodywork) and some good aerodynamic testing, still it is quite hard to do in front engine production car but not impossible. It could also work if you have a car with a nose as low as the nose in the Jager 962 if you pay attention the front of the car have a aero profile shape. The small wing that was used in the Jager 962 wasnt creating downforce by itself it was slowing down the air above the bodywork (It looks like it may have been reducing drag and keeping the flow attached) so that the air that was going through the underbody could flow faster hence generating more downforce this technique is used in prototypes today, the Pagani Huayra use the same principle for cooling, downforce and braking; actually most of the hypercars apply the principle. Using a wing like the one on the M3 is actually a good idea; in a good position it isnt neccesary affecting the overall flow hence letting the rear wing do his job but since the M3 is a front engine rwd car is weird to me to see a front wing in that, but anyway that is besides the point.

pcormier66

BMW M4 GTS.

Scaxx

That exhaust is sexy

z31maniac

FTFY

I'm guessing it's got a bypass valve or something?

d k

iTrader: (4)

If anyone needs more detailed pictures of the M4 GTS, please fire away!

dasting

What are these, pngs for ants?

Yes please, more detailed images.

sixshooter

iTrader: (12)

Lol. Yes, please!

endura

relevant part @ 10:07. interesting because rear window slope seems similar to a Miata. does that spoiler come up at certain speed or just when braking?

d k

iTrader: (4)

Speed.

You can see at 12:59

hornetball

iTrader: (4)

After adding a Fabworx spoiler, had understeer on fast sweepers. So, I built myself a 3" splitter out of 1/4" maple plywood from Lowe's racing. One $25 sheet gives 4 splitters and the material is stiff and light. Brushed on black latex paint as a finish.


To attach to the car, I braced the rear with some bent-up aluminum flat stock and bolted the splitter to the brace and bottom of the R-package lip with 10 M6x1 U-nuts and flanged bolts.






Added some ABS spats just for the heck of it!


As part of my testing, I made sure to nail a cone going 90mph (shot from a fellow-instructor's car):

The splitter had a good gouge from the cone, but everything else held up. Oh, and aero balance was much improved. YMMV.

Blackbird

Not to be Captain Obvious here, but did you try adjusting the spoiler to lower AOA?
The splitter would be helpful regardless, of course