Question for those of you in the advanced group
 

I'm going to be moving up from the "point by on straights" to "point by anywhere" group, since I feel comfortable enough with that (had an Audi R8 point me by mid-turn even though we were in the lower group, and that didn't bother me), but I've gotten to thinking about the advanced groups and the "passing without point by ok" standard, and it seems unclear to me.

I'm certaintly by no means going to be in this class myself any time soon by the way, I'm just curious about this.

How does passing work exactly? Especially in an underpowered car compared to most of the cars out there, you've not going to come onto a straight and be able to pass another car if they don't lift, so it seems like a miata driver's only option would be to out-brake a car ahead of them, but I know that "dive-bombing" isn't allowed, so how does a miata ever pass another car? Or, even though point-bys aren't a necessity, will an advanced class driver still give a point-by and lift to allow the pass if a miata catches them up in the corners? It just seems, thinking about it, like if it's not necessary to get a point-by for passing, that it would then become a "pass me if you can, or if you can't stay behind me" sort of thing... which is more a race mentality, not a time attack mentality.

Anyways, just curious here.

I'm doing Speedventures events almost predominantly, I know some other orgs are stricter, but it seems like Speedventures is a bit more "wild west" and leaves is up to the drivers discretion more, which is sort of what seems to fascillitate my idea that it would be difficult for miatas to get past other cars.

-Ryan

For one lap getting close enough to use your lights - then maybe a beep of the horn works, as long as their is a flagging station near to witness. Dad who instructed for many years suggested this and says the pass may have to wait until next lap at same place to do it again. Eventually a pass flag will be waived, and the flag stations do have radios. Still should be "good courtesy" for car in front to give a slight lift to allow the pass, but they shouldn't have to deviate from their line- period for this to happen. Doesn't mean they will. However, most of us know there is a reason you are filling up the mirrors. ;)
Have even seen it go so far as to point out any blockers to the grid bitch and stewards and they usually will give a good "weenie wacking" prior to next session. Wish it were always that way - but like Ringo Star says "There's one in every crowd". :giggle:
Good luck!
*** Edit *** Others will chime in soon, and you will hear several effective methods that allow the flow to go...

If they are in that group they should be aware to look out for miatas.

Advanced class drivers SHOULD be the most courtious. Is a track day, not racing. You shouldn't be forced to pass, you should be allowed to pass. Like said before, there's one in every crowd but by the time you reach a level that allows open passing you should be comfortable with it. Personally I haven't seen a track day that allows completely open passing. Advanced groups around here it's passing by point by anywhere.

Your point by mid corner story just reinforces that just because you are pointed by doesn't mean you have to pass there. Wait until it's safe or within your comfort level.

You will see once you get in there that it is a pretty fuild and natural thing. Most people by that level have a pretty good idea of what is going on around, so they know to watch for cars gaining on them.

If you do get into an instance where there is a guy that is really not paying attention and you can't overpower him in the straights, then roll through hot pit and give him some space. When I was in the lower groups, I would go for laps behind some jackass that decided that he didn't need to pay attention to cars around him or the corner workers. These are the kind of guys that make passing dangerous and I steer clear of them at all cost.

This is why I like motorcycles. Intermediate track days are "give at least 2 armlengths, and always pass on the outside", Advanced track days are "be safe if you're close enough to the other bike to touch it, and don't surprise the other guy mid-corner if you're passing on the inside".

No mirrors on a track bike.

But I suppose the track is 5x wider when you're on a motorcycle too.

since you run with Speedventures. SV has by far the fastest and most courteous advanced group. I can't recall in last 5 events that got held up more than 3 corners. it is highly frowned upon in SV advanced group if you don't lift (within few corners) to let faster car by. many get kicked out of advanced group if there are more than a couple of complaints.

once in a while, either you or the other guy will hold you up, but that's usually when someone is almost finishing their hot lap (timed). but that's understandable.

with Miata, you almost always pass others in the corner. you can't pass them on the straight, you certainly won't be in position to dive bomb anyone at end of a straight. you do need courtesy from others when you are in a Miata.

SV also grid by lap time, so in theory (and in practice), there are a lot fewer traffic issues.

I run open passing group most of the time. Don't really pass to many people though (grid by time). Mostly you will encouter someone doing a cool down lap and they get off line in the corners/straights for you to keep up your hot lap. Not having to worry about points is nice.

Interesting (to me) was that in a TT download, that we just started doing this year, some of the really, really fast guys that do most of the passing, stated that they would rather we not point them-by. Just stay on our normal lines and they would take care of the rest. They prefer we keep both hands on the wheel.

I've always tried to be courteious and give a point when I can, but I kinda agree with this keeping both hands on wheel and driving my line concept.

:noob: So when somebody gives you a point by, how do you know if they will move or if you are supposed to move around them?

you point to where you want the faster car to go.
a lots of time, there is no point by, especially with race car with right and left window nets. I would tap the mirror instead. that signals I know you are there, so there is no surprises when it comes to passing.

You pass on the side the guy in front points to. We have the same here on most trackdays. Pass whereever the fuck you want, as long as it is safe to do so. If I get stuck behind a car that refuses to let me pass, I'll just ease off and create some space between us.

bellwilliam beat me to it.

I totally miss racing bikes after reading that post. All true. You can usually hear the bike behind you when they are coming so you know they are there, and can judge their closing speed by how quickly they get louder. Plus you can 'show someone a wheel' and then they will know you are there for sure.

Anyway, yes the usual deal is when you get a point by is for the car in front to lift and let the overtaking car get by. I do. But not everyone does it as mentioned, and some will not let you by at all as mentioned **cough** silver WRX **cough** white 300ZX **cough**. Whether you do an open pass, slow down to make a gap, or pull off into hot pit depends on things like how much faster you are (might catch them again) or whether there is traffic behind you, or if you know or not if there is clear track behind you. I think open passing is only allowed in TT and HPDE4.

With pre-gridding and the level of skill in SV Red it's really not an issue. I have a lot more trouble in other groups - part of the reason I'm pretty picky about who I run my events with now.

I came in here to say everything that has already been said... Good job MT!;)

NASA is also a "grid by speed" style, but it usually turns out to be a "grid by how expensive your car is" here at MidOhio.
I don't know the tracks you run on, but my only chance at passing people is to abuse corner and exit speeds to stay next to people hoping they lift down the straights.

HPDE4/Advanced group drivers should also be very aware of their surroundings and very aware of how capable properly driven miatae are. I was always more anxious about my own comfort level when moving into the faster groups, rather than other people.

We really are spoiled with SPeedventures advanced group (even their high intermediate group). Anybody not lifting to let other pass after just a few corners get chewed out at download. Standard of driving is also much higher than any other group I've seen.

You don't. You go over them! Haven't you seen Sav's pogo stick? That's why he's so fast.

In Australia there are only a couple of sanctions and CAMS (Confederation Of Australian Motorsport, by far the biggest one) Does not allow any body part outside of a car, and it gets you yellow flagged immediately. The difference is surprising to me.

Dann

Knight Rider status. I suppose his MS is really KITT and he is really the Hoff, who is really the Stig.

You Aussies and your crazy rules. Yellow flag?

I really do wish we had the body part rule here. When I run a track with Hustler, he's always tossing his schlong over his left shoulder before strapping in. Then when he's on a flyer there's this pink think sticking out the window and everyone thinks he's pointing. Fucking confusing and a pain in the ass.

^^^^^^^ yucky

I like that he mentioned Hustlers schlong and ass pain in the same post.

In NASATX we know who the DE4 guys are because they don't have "tt" on their cars. If I am passing and don't trust the guy in front if me, then I pass on the inside ofthe exit.

If you're in a white 300z (500whp) and don't "get it", then I'm going to block your ass on the straights, again.

If it's a TXMC buddy, I'll present the car and we can go side by side for a while if you want.

I beat my meat pretty hard while racing.

Good strategy. Late apex and do an over-under pass. That is what I like to do and was my preferred method of passing slower bikes. It is lower risk. It helps to have a faster car or at least carry a lot of speed out of the corner. If you can just get next to them and the next corner turns in the same direction, you own the apex at the next corner and they have to slow down.

Turn 6 going CCW is a great place for this at TWS. You can late apex that corner, you have a long straight to gain overlap (if you exit faster), and at the entrance to Turn 7 the slower guys will not brake as deep so you eventually get them under braking. I could take a corner-parker on a liter bike with my SV650 if I timed the T6 exit just right.

I run in TT with NASA and still give a point by when I can. Most of the time though I really don't have to do much before they are by me. I do it as a courtesy to others and to keep up communication on track. I have never once had someone tell my that they preferred me not to do so.

I will say that my skills have improved dramatically since being forced into TT.

Have a great day,
Jared

+1. Lots of point-bys in SV red (advanced), even though they aren't required anywhere to pass.

They separated TT from the DE4 guys here in the SE region, and have some combined DE3 and 4 groups - which can cause confusion if one forgets PBs are required, but it gives good experience to the DE3 guys when they're running the DE4 sticker on thier car. If I don't know the guy, I'll give him a PB - others/friends I'm comfortable with have to earn it :)

I thought all HPDE's where they point by are essentially computer remote controlled RC's cars? What a waste of time IMHO.

At TWS the only time you're pointing is when you're on a cool down because you're constantly on the wheel, turning the car through 500-700' long corners. I got passed a lot, and I mean a lot, last weekend at TWS and taking a hand off the wheel to point someone by is a little less safe than holding your line.

The best thing to remember is that most of the guys running open passing have done this before, don't recognize your car if you're new, and know to use extra caution.

Right now I'm debating whether or not I want to pay $300 for 2-days for "Miata's at Hallett". I've gone every year but the prospect of poking around the track, waiting for someone to signal the conga-line of TT crew to pass, so we can train them is not soundign like a great idea. Then again, that's 4+ hours of open track on Friday, I should probably do it and burn-up 3 tanks of fuel.

It's hardly "wild west", it's the natural progression of driver skill. To paraphase Savingpozhole, "If someone has run DE for a while/years and they can't handle open passing, I don't want to be on the track with them."

That makes sense. From a beginner's standpoint, there's a lot going on on the track, a lot to pay attention to, and coupled with that you want to make sure you're aware of all the cars around you and what pace they are at, whether you need to point them by, etc. But also from personal experience I've seen that when you get out there, there's a flow to it and you get the hang of it pretty quick. Thinking about the advanced group's rules, it seemed a bit overwhelming to imagine the point-by not necessary environment, but as you said, advanced group is exactly that - people who are experienced and who aren't overwhelmed by it. Looking forward to one day being at that point myself. Long way to go though.

This sums it up pretty well. It's the experience that matters. I remember starting out in the beginning, I had an instructor that made a point of having me point out the cornor stations on the warm up, then during one session, wanted me to call out when we were near a station. I failed miserably, as I was so intent on going fast and focusing on that. It was good training that I kept up with though, and today, can I can even recognize corner workers that I know, while at speed.

Same for open passing. Experience and familarity with other drivers makes it pretty much automatic. When someone new is added, I think we all follow the old adage "I'm ok, you're so-so" until they prove otherwise. You also get to know from experience, different cars capabilities, and thus where and when a proper overtake is best.

On our last event, I played in a pointby only group for a day. Biggest difference was there was more variance in overall speed and skill even with drivers of same makes (vettes). Once back in the open passing group, the skill/speed levels were much more consistent and it was actually more comfortable.