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Old 05-04-2011, 04:37 PM   #1
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Default Question for those of you in the advanced group

I'm going to be moving up from the "point by on straights" to "point by anywhere" group, since I feel comfortable enough with that (had an Audi R8 point me by mid-turn even though we were in the lower group, and that didn't bother me), but I've gotten to thinking about the advanced groups and the "passing without point by ok" standard, and it seems unclear to me.

I'm certaintly by no means going to be in this class myself any time soon by the way, I'm just curious about this.

How does passing work exactly? Especially in an underpowered car compared to most of the cars out there, you've not going to come onto a straight and be able to pass another car if they don't lift, so it seems like a miata driver's only option would be to out-brake a car ahead of them, but I know that "dive-bombing" isn't allowed, so how does a miata ever pass another car? Or, even though point-bys aren't a necessity, will an advanced class driver still give a point-by and lift to allow the pass if a miata catches them up in the corners? It just seems, thinking about it, like if it's not necessary to get a point-by for passing, that it would then become a "pass me if you can, or if you can't stay behind me" sort of thing... which is more a race mentality, not a time attack mentality.

Anyways, just curious here.

I'm doing Speedventures events almost predominantly, I know some other orgs are stricter, but it seems like Speedventures is a bit more "wild west" and leaves is up to the drivers discretion more, which is sort of what seems to fascillitate my idea that it would be difficult for miatas to get past other cars.

-Ryan
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Old 05-04-2011, 04:56 PM   #2
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For one lap getting close enough to use your lights - then maybe a beep of the horn works, as long as their is a flagging station near to witness. Dad who instructed for many years suggested this and says the pass may have to wait until next lap at same place to do it again. Eventually a pass flag will be waived, and the flag stations do have radios. Still should be "good courtesy" for car in front to give a slight lift to allow the pass, but they shouldn't have to deviate from their line- period for this to happen. Doesn't mean they will. However, most of us know there is a reason you are filling up the mirrors.
Have even seen it go so far as to point out any blockers to the grid bitch and stewards and they usually will give a good "weenie wacking" prior to next session. Wish it were always that way - but like Ringo Star says "There's one in every crowd".
Good luck!
*** Edit *** Others will chime in soon, and you will hear several effective methods that allow the flow to go...
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Old 05-04-2011, 05:16 PM   #3
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If they are in that group they should be aware to look out for miatas.
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Old 05-04-2011, 05:22 PM   #4
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Advanced class drivers SHOULD be the most courtious. Is a track day, not racing. You shouldn't be forced to pass, you should be allowed to pass. Like said before, there's one in every crowd but by the time you reach a level that allows open passing you should be comfortable with it. Personally I haven't seen a track day that allows completely open passing. Advanced groups around here it's passing by point by anywhere.

Your point by mid corner story just reinforces that just because you are pointed by doesn't mean you have to pass there. Wait until it's safe or within your comfort level.
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Old 05-04-2011, 05:35 PM   #5
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You will see once you get in there that it is a pretty fuild and natural thing. Most people by that level have a pretty good idea of what is going on around, so they know to watch for cars gaining on them.

If you do get into an instance where there is a guy that is really not paying attention and you can't overpower him in the straights, then roll through hot pit and give him some space. When I was in the lower groups, I would go for laps behind some jackass that decided that he didn't need to pay attention to cars around him or the corner workers. These are the kind of guys that make passing dangerous and I steer clear of them at all cost.
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Old 05-04-2011, 06:24 PM   #6
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This is why I like motorcycles. Intermediate track days are "give at least 2 armlengths, and always pass on the outside", Advanced track days are "be safe if you're close enough to the other bike to touch it, and don't surprise the other guy mid-corner if you're passing on the inside".

No mirrors on a track bike.

But I suppose the track is 5x wider when you're on a motorcycle too.
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Old 05-04-2011, 07:37 PM   #7
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since you run with Speedventures. SV has by far the fastest and most courteous advanced group. I can't recall in last 5 events that got held up more than 3 corners. it is highly frowned upon in SV advanced group if you don't lift (within few corners) to let faster car by. many get kicked out of advanced group if there are more than a couple of complaints.

once in a while, either you or the other guy will hold you up, but that's usually when someone is almost finishing their hot lap (timed). but that's understandable.

with Miata, you almost always pass others in the corner. you can't pass them on the straight, you certainly won't be in position to dive bomb anyone at end of a straight. you do need courtesy from others when you are in a Miata.

SV also grid by lap time, so in theory (and in practice), there are a lot fewer traffic issues.
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Old 05-04-2011, 07:48 PM   #8
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I run open passing group most of the time. Don't really pass to many people though (grid by time). Mostly you will encouter someone doing a cool down lap and they get off line in the corners/straights for you to keep up your hot lap. Not having to worry about points is nice.

Interesting (to me) was that in a TT download, that we just started doing this year, some of the really, really fast guys that do most of the passing, stated that they would rather we not point them-by. Just stay on our normal lines and they would take care of the rest. They prefer we keep both hands on the wheel.

I've always tried to be courteious and give a point when I can, but I kinda agree with this keeping both hands on wheel and driving my line concept.
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Old 05-04-2011, 08:31 PM   #9
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So when somebody gives you a point by, how do you know if they will move or if you are supposed to move around them?
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Old 05-04-2011, 08:37 PM   #10
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you point to where you want the faster car to go.
a lots of time, there is no point by, especially with race car with right and left window nets. I would tap the mirror instead. that signals I know you are there, so there is no surprises when it comes to passing.
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Old 05-04-2011, 08:41 PM   #11
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You pass on the side the guy in front points to. We have the same here on most trackdays. Pass whereever the **** you want, as long as it is safe to do so. If I get stuck behind a car that refuses to let me pass, I'll just ease off and create some space between us.

bellwilliam beat me to it.
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Old 05-04-2011, 10:13 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fooger03 View Post
This is why I like motorcycles. Intermediate track days are "give at least 2 armlengths, and always pass on the outside", Advanced track days are "be safe if you're close enough to the other bike to touch it, and don't surprise the other guy mid-corner if you're passing on the inside".

No mirrors on a track bike.

But I suppose the track is 5x wider when you're on a motorcycle too.
I totally miss racing bikes after reading that post. All true. You can usually hear the bike behind you when they are coming so you know they are there, and can judge their closing speed by how quickly they get louder. Plus you can 'show someone a wheel' and then they will know you are there for sure.

Anyway, yes the usual deal is when you get a point by is for the car in front to lift and let the overtaking car get by. I do. But not everyone does it as mentioned, and some will not let you by at all as mentioned **cough** silver WRX **cough** white 300ZX **cough**. Whether you do an open pass, slow down to make a gap, or pull off into hot pit depends on things like how much faster you are (might catch them again) or whether there is traffic behind you, or if you know or not if there is clear track behind you. I think open passing is only allowed in TT and HPDE4.
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Old 05-04-2011, 10:46 PM   #13
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With pre-gridding and the level of skill in SV Red it's really not an issue. I have a lot more trouble in other groups - part of the reason I'm pretty picky about who I run my events with now.
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Old 05-04-2011, 11:03 PM   #14
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I came in here to say everything that has already been said... Good job MT!

NASA is also a "grid by speed" style, but it usually turns out to be a "grid by how expensive your car is" here at MidOhio.
I don't know the tracks you run on, but my only chance at passing people is to abuse corner and exit speeds to stay next to people hoping they lift down the straights.

HPDE4/Advanced group drivers should also be very aware of their surroundings and very aware of how capable properly driven miatae are. I was always more anxious about my own comfort level when moving into the faster groups, rather than other people.
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Old 05-04-2011, 11:43 PM   #15
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We really are spoiled with SPeedventures advanced group (even their high intermediate group). Anybody not lifting to let other pass after just a few corners get chewed out at download. Standard of driving is also much higher than any other group I've seen.
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Old 05-05-2011, 03:14 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mx5autoxer View Post
So when somebody gives you a point by, how do you know if they will move or if you are supposed to move around them?
You don't. You go over them! Haven't you seen Sav's pogo stick? That's why he's so fast.
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Old 05-05-2011, 05:22 AM   #17
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In Australia there are only a couple of sanctions and CAMS (Confederation Of Australian Motorsport, by far the biggest one) Does not allow any body part outside of a car, and it gets you yellow flagged immediately. The difference is surprising to me.

Dann
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Old 05-05-2011, 08:08 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottyd View Post
You don't. You go over them! Haven't you seen Sav's pogo stick? That's why he's so fast.
Knight Rider status. I suppose his MS is really KITT and he is really the Hoff, who is really the Stig.
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Old 05-05-2011, 11:44 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrodann View Post
In Australia there are only a couple of sanctions and CAMS (Confederation Of Australian Motorsport, by far the biggest one) Does not allow any body part outside of a car, and it gets you yellow flagged immediately. The difference is surprising to me.

Dann
You Aussies and your crazy rules. Yellow flag?

I really do wish we had the body part rule here. When I run a track with Hustler, he's always tossing his ******* over his left shoulder before strapping in. Then when he's on a flyer there's this pink think sticking out the window and everyone thinks he's pointing. ******* confusing and a pain in the ***.
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Old 05-05-2011, 01:20 PM   #20
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^^^^^^^ yucky
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