Ran my first SOLO event last weekend, SSM
 

Was meh.

Can somebody explain how to make 7.5hrs of standing around worth 4.5min of seat time? I know I must be missing something here as it's a really popular motorsport.

I like the intensity. If there was a track with 40+ turns/mile and large runoff to the walls/armco/etc I'd likely be all over it. And how you have 3-6 times to get it perfect after never having seen the course before.

Also, how much time did you spend shooting the shit and hanging out with with random car people, that arent waxers, you'd never met before? If it was under 5 hours, you're doing it wrong.

Welcome to why I hardly autox anymore. The only events I run are the test and tunes (as many runs as you can muster) and the 24 hour autox we have locally (also as many runs as you can muster, but for the runs you do have to work more)

Otherwise I stick t track events. I personally feel like they are more seat time for you buck anyways.

7.5 hours of standing around? That club is doing it wrong. I'm an officer, and show up at 7am, and get off site between 3 and 5 depending on whether we do fun runs(I'm ussually one of the last to leave, and first to show up). It should be possible to show up at 9, and be gone by 2.

I love the different course every event + 3-6 shots at the course to get it right. After 8 runs or so I'm bored. Also if your hands aren't shaking when you come off course, you're too slow.

Wow that would never fly here. If we were so far ahead of schedule that we were gonna get 6 runs done and the truck packed and leave by 3 there would likely be a lynching of the club leadership for wasting daylight. I'm equipment chief of our scca region, so I show up, drive the truck from the on site storage and unpack it at 7am, then I try to pack up quickly when we're done our runs so we can finish trophies by 6:30ish. We used to not get out till 7, but packing the truck got significantly faster when I cleaned and organized it for an entire day during the school last season. 12 hrs for 6-8 minutes of high intensity low risk driving and hanging out with your friends.

This. Although if you are in SSM for FI reasons and still on street tires, that is a waste of time. I speak from experience. Might as well install a block of wood under the throttle. Get some half used R-comps. Makes a WORLD of difference.

it's not, you're not.

try autox in Texas while its 130-degrees on the asphalt, it sucks even more. One track day and i gave up autox for good. they need designated track workers for autox, then i might do it again.

Autocross isn't for everyone. It is a good starting point because of the price and safety (can only go so fast in a parking lot), but when you compare it to the seat time you get with a HPDE or similar event, it simply doesn't compare.

If you are in it for seat time, it won't be worth it.
If you like to meet and hang out with some great people, it is worth it.

How'd you do?

Auto-x never seemed worth it to me, although I've only been to 1 and I was watching. I'm planning on giving it a shot still.

fixed for reality.

For me, It's about perfect since I love the competition and the adrenaline rush, but don't have the cajones to deal with someone else balling up my car. At least in autocrossing not only is it tough for me to total it, if someone does it's going to be me. I just don't think I could invest several thousand dollars and hundreds of hours, just to write it off.(and don't fool yourself, NEVER take to the track what you can't walk away from). Ya, the $$/track time suck, but drag racing is even worse. :) If I wanted to go to the track my investments would have to double since my wife drives with me.

Cliff's Notes: Yep, $$/track time suck, but it's the competition that drives me as much as the driving itself.

Autocross is a good entry point into motorsports and it's always good to know who has a local one so you can shake down your car without resorting to breaking the law. I've been autocrossing for a few years, and comparing it to the track isn't exactly fair; however, I do agree that the $ (or hours)/seat time is pretty bad. Autocross will help and hinder you on the track, but the hindrance is easy to "unlearn" and the first-hand knowledge of how to react when the car is unsettled or sliding is worth the price of admission. The track is all about "slow hands", but being able to break out the "fast hands" from autocross when stuff is going awry can save your bacon on the track.

Just to look at it through a different lens: Think of autocross as 25% motorsport, 70% social, and 5% complaining about some arbitrary rule and being a semantic dick about things. Running in a competitive class definitely makes or breaks the experience once you have a dozen or so events under your belt.

It also helps to remember that you don't have go full-on autocrosser to get something out of it. Personally, I doubt I'll ever go to a Nationals event because my car is borderline legal in CSP, and I know I'm not going to be able to compete with people who literally bring 4+ sets of fresh A6 Hoosiers and have $80k into their Miata. It's all about balance and managing expectations.

I'm with this guy, especially regarding the heat. We do have a local place with no course work that runs night events (non-SCCA) and that was a lot more fun. $10 more and no cone fetching? That's a premium I'm willing to pay.


I do feel like autocross is a good entry point and can be a lot cheaper than HPDE stuff, if you are content to be non-nationally competitive.

This is probably a good way to think about it.


Also I'm not convinced that those who bring 4 sets of tires to nationals are really getting extra out of them.

It depends on the class. A halfway decent CSP car? Not really you get 40 some odd runs before they really start to fall off. But like a stock class cobalt SS? sure you can cord the front tires in 12 runs at Lincoln because coarse concrete, no camber, tons of powah fwd. I can see 2 sets of tires, a set for the pro and time on the practice course and then a set for the championship. And of course having a set of H2O's on reserve with hoosier and a set of 15x9 for them to go on.

OK, that I can see. I always forget about the Pro Finale since I've never run it. Yep, with a Good(bad?) DS car you can definitely chew through some tires. I forget about that sort of thing since I've never been in a class like that. ES Miata, FSP Neon, Shifter Kart, now the DP car, none of them had any huge tire wear issues.

If you really like auto-x and the social aspect; may I recommend looking to get a gig as a tire warmer on a better prep'd car and going. Most of the stories and nicknames in our local club have stemmed from the out of town events than is healthy. Nationals is extremely fun: See Big Wheel Pro Solo.

Being a tire warmer is only fun if you beat the owner. :party:

Talkin shit brah?!

Autox is not really that fun. As GAMO tells me, he goes for the people ;)

I go to the test n' tunes (basically you run as much as you like). Track events are certainly more fun, but they are expensive. I would do atleast two autocrosses to get the mazda dev. membership for the year until you start doing TT (if you plan to).

Standing around for 7.5 hours is nothing....Twice a year I tow my car to Nebraska...16 hours EACH WAY to stand around for a week :)

If you have to ask these questions...the sport just might not be for you. No harm no foul and to each their own. I personally don't get the folks that just do local events. I run more National level events than I do locals these days. The courses at National Events are just much more challenging, the competition is MUCH stiffer and the people are AMAZINGLY cool.

Thanks for all the responses...kind of what I thought I'd see. Every side :)

Yeah, I can see that there’s an intensity about it that people might find, especially if you had only 3 runs to get a good time. I guess I just didn’t find it as captivating as pulling a lot of consecutive laps on a road course.

One of the guys I met at the event told me about the test and tune locally, but it’s not up on the schedule yet. His description sounded like yours, and said he got in over 20 laps last time. That’s one I’ll hit for sure as it potentially gets me driving a lot more, and can be a way for me to find the limit more safely than on a mountain pass :)

I guess that’s the main reason why I was put in there. And I really didn’t care where I was as it was just an excuse to try something new. I figured if I got hooked I’d deal with buying wheels/slicks/brakes later, and have a better look at the rules for SSM. But I figure I’ll only do one once in a while so I’m not sweating that stuff for now.

Won my class…by default. Nobody else was registered there. Overall, I was 85th out of 115 racers in real time. They (SCCA) also use a handicapping index, and with that I was even worse at 105/115 LOL

Video is the same course but shot from a Radical. His time was 12sec faster than mine haha.


The slow hands/fast hands idea makes sense…kind of what I was hoping the experience would give me. I think the test and tune day will best serve my need for instant gratification. The social aspect was great, didn’t meet anyone who wasn’t friendly or willing to offer advice.

Autocross is oddly specific and anybody who says "yeah, I was setting FTD right out of the gate" is full of shit. It takes probably 5 or 6 events for things to click and you start figuring out what you can and cannot get away with.

My first autox, probably the tallest guy at the event squeezed into my NA with a hardtop on and I set a bitchin' time of like 72 seconds.

I hopped in his NC for a run, he spun out and was still 10 seconds faster than me.

Well after working/watching the first heat I definitely thought I had it figured out haha. I DNF'd one run and hit a cone on two others, and my best time was on the lap that I decided to slow down. Funny how that old saying actually works out lol.

I figure the TnT will wither kick my desire up a level, or satisfy me for a while, kind of like drag racing where once every year or two is usually enough.

Only 16 for you? 22ish here.. Just to nearly die of heat stroke after run 1. :( Still worth the trip.

Only 16 hours? Lucky google maps says its 22 for me. Planning a stop over in ohio.

Dont do it too much though or you wont be allowed to be the tire warmer anymore. Rule number 1 of co-drives, Never beat the car owner.

I AutoX'ed for a year and a half before taking my car on-track (waiting to get the roll bar in). Mostly with the S-2000 and BMW clubs (8-10 runs per event). I'm glad I did. It is a different skill set than track driving, but many things carry over. It really all comes down to the 4 little tire patches that are on the ground and what you can do with the car. Some of the things I learned:
1. How to prepare my car for an event.
2. How to prepare my mind for a run.
3. What the line is.
4. How to threshold brake.
5. What to do when the car gets out of shape. (Much less danger in AutoX)
6. How to turn the car with trail braking
7. When to go slow to go fast

The things I've had to unlearn:
1. Shuffle steering
2. Always going 10/10ths - low risk at AutoX, high risk on track

I'll continue to AutoX on weekends when there is no track event to keep my limited skills. I have found that track driving makes my AutoX technique smoother.

Other things to Unlearn:
3. Turn in early

This is something I have a general idea about, but no practical experience. Mostly, because I don't want to learn at high speeds and/or on public roads. This is something I hope to begin to get a handle on at the test and tune.

Go drive a front heavy, FWD car: you'll learn about trail braking.

This is probably the worst thing about transitioning from autox to track, but if you have a good instructor, they'll set you straight.

This is why I NEVER recommend anything other than CLUB autocross events. SCCA SUCKS horribly for people trying to socialize and enjoy themselves. It's slow, boring, and most of the people out there have a stick in their ass. They don't want to help, they don't want to chit-chat and share advice, they don't want you near them. It's competitive, and even the horribly shitty drivers with non-competitive cars think they're god's gift to asphalt. Had I not driven club autocrosses for three years before trying SCCA, I would have never enjoyed motorsports.

On the other hand, an average autocross at our club is 12+ runs on any given day. The day is split into three different run groups: one runs, one works, one rests. Typically two-three cars on the course at a time, depending on the speed of the course. Absolutely everyone is willing to help you, drive with you, let you drive their car, smile and congratulate you if you beat their car by .001 seconds. If you aren't competitive in your class, you pick a driver that is close to you and start a competition with them. It's serious fun and camaraderie.

Based on your first impression, run like hell from the SCCA bullshit and find a club to autocross with.

There is SO much ignorant generalization and just flat out WRONG information with this post that I don't even know where to start.

And I don't know who told you that you shouldn't outrun the car owner. I have one of the fastest SSM cars in the country...and if you want to drive it YOU BETTER be faster than me. I have ZERO interest in letting someone drive my car that I can't learn something from.

I'll try not to get us too off topic. From your post and mine, we clearly have different levels of interest in autocross. You don't get the local folk, just like I don't get the sanctioned event folk.

Based on your post above, that's the exact attitude that keeps me away from SCCA.

I said, "They don't want to help, they don't want to chit-chat and share advice, they don't want you near them."

You said, "I have one of the fastest SSM cars in the country...and if you want to drive it YOU BETTER be faster than me. I have ZERO interest in letting someone drive my car that I can't learn something from."

You support my thesis. That's the exact attitude I see at SCCA events.

A relevant comparison for autocross is downhill skiing, or snowboarding, on a busy day. You spend a lot of time in line or on the lift chatting with your friends, and only a small percentage of the total time are you ripping it up. The relative success or failure of the day for you (as an enjoyable experience) has more to do with the company you keep than actual event.

I have yet to try a local SCCA event. I am enjoying the local PCA autocrosses, which are very friendly and usually do 8 runs, which allows me to learn more each time.

1) You missed the part of the post where I said the people are AMAZINGLY COOL. - I have made some of my best friends in the world through Auto-X. There are a group of people that I have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in common with other than our interest in Auto-X yet we all would gladly do anything to help each other out.

2) You attitude about people not being willing to help you out is JUST PLAIN WRONG. Here are just a few small examples of that.
2a.) At the Solo National Championships this year Andy McKee's car broke on day two. He had the lead in XP but it was a VERY small lead. He needed to find a car to drive for his last two runs. Carter Thompson, who also has a FD-RX7 and who had just won the National CHampionship in SSM, pulled his car off the trailer and tossed the keys to Andy.
2b.) Carter Thompson's car was the only car faster than my car on raw time at Nationals last year. So after Nationals Carter agrees to Co Drive my car at the St. Louis Road Tour. He made a few runs in my car and gave me some VERY valuable feedback on the car which has made it faster and easier to drive.
2c.) At the Dixie tour just a few weeks ago my car suffered a broken Oil line on a run and I was frantically trying to fix it in grid. Jason Collett without being asked ran close to a half mile to my truck and back to get some tools and jack stands. Matt Glagloia(sp?) one of the other competitors in SSM offered his car to my co driver so my co driver could make his last run.

ANYONE who would think that SCCA Auto-Xers are not willing to help is either such a huge douche that nobody would want to help them, or they just simply haven't asked.

And my attitude about my car is very simple. I have a ton of money and a ton of time in my car. I'm not interested in letting just anyone drive it. At the National Level the all in cost to operate my car on course is close to $60 PER RUN. Last year alone there were a total of 9 people that drove my car at different events. I spent A LOT of money letting them do so. Someone make the comment that the first rule of being a tire warmer is that you NEVER beat the car owner. And my point is that is the wrong attitude for a car owner to have. If you are so petty that you can't let someone who is faster than you drive your car....then you are never going to get faster, and your car is going to get stuck in a rut.

There are other people who are building cars that will eventually be my competitors. I ,and others, have been an open book with tips and advice to these folks trying to help make their cars as fast as possible.

Do you really think those things sound like a group of people who don't want other folks to be around them or their cars?

Lots of interesting points of view in here. Some are even actually based off of direct experience. But for the most part, Eric and his views are the reason why solo is succesful at a national level and his views are what get people really modifying their cars and their skills for competitive events. And since the rules and event format are almost universally based around the national autox guidelines, autox revolves around national competition. Notice the word "almost" in my sentences twice.

Local club rules and practices can affect national guidelines especially when popular opinion is a heavy influence in classing and rulemaking. Those who complain about the rules are not actively reaching out to the SCCA BOD or their particular class advisory commitee. The rules are not made by some rich fat guy trying to make the sport more profitable, they are made by competitors. You have a problem, write a letter and dont complain until you do.

There will always be people afraid of finding out how good they are for fear that they arent as good as they thought. This will intimidate most people that dont come back for a second autox. I personally got beat by 20 seconds the first time I drove against a good driver in my class when I started autox in (gasp) the year 2000. He had a well prepared car and drove well. I was at my second event on street tires. Got race tires and took six seconds of that 20. And then just never gave up trying to catch him. And thats how I approach autox, I always try to catch the faster guys.

There will always be people afraid to do national events for x amount of reasons. Hey if you dont want to do it or you simply cant, dont do it. Ive done my share of national events. On my best local event, I didnt learn or compete at anywhere near the level as my worst national event. Right now Im only doing local events as I dont have the budget to travel. Segue, most people who complain about national competition being too expensive and that they cant compete with people who spend that much money on their cars couldnt compete with those guys anyhow even given an unlimited budget.

RRing or autox? Never been on a track unless as a passenger. The most exciting part for me was the braking zones. Ive done a little over 100 autox and was at 100% on every run mostly driving someone elses car. Never broke anything, never needed to change pads, etc. Only expenses were traveling, entry fees, and tires. Yup had to go and shag cones or do some other work assignment which is part of the deal when the organizers are also the competitors. But thats the great part about autox, no gravy train for anyone. The rules apply to everyone so no need to complain. Plus those of you who RR, do you do it competitively or just do track days and show your neighbors the video of you passing the Ferrari who happened to be on his cool down lap? If you do it competitiely, how much time/money do you spend fixing/maintaining the car? I might compare that to shagging cones/standing around for 7.5 hours. And personal opinion but there is another fairly big reason why autox in general is so attractive to Miatas and other convertibles: they dont need roll bars or other safety concerns. Just sayin.

Thankfully, my first experience was nothing like that (aside from the slow, mildly boring bits lol). Everyone I met was super helpful, friendly, gave me noob advice, etc. Running with a club would probably be more fun, though, if there was more time on course than at the SCCA event. I think that's what it boils down to for me...more seat time.

Action shots. Many thanks to VariantStudios.com for the photos.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...1&d=1365384880

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...1&d=1365384880

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...1&d=1365384993

Jeezuz, I live 15 minutes north of Lincoln, all of our local events this year are on the Nationals course and I STILL won't do it anymore.

Then SOLO is not for you. :)

To be fair, I'm not sure I would want to be a local at lincoln. From what I hear the surface just gobbles up tires. Though it would give you a distinct car setup advantage compared to someone who only runs there for nats and spring nats.

My time break down for sunday
2 hours driving to and from event
6 minutes of racing (we only got 5 runs (because 160 drivers) but I got to do an instructor drive in a "D stock" wrx)
2 hours of un-packing and packing the truck (equipment chief)
10 hours of shooting the shit about random crap and or talking about car setup with my friends that I hadn't really seen for like 3 months and getting wind burn
2 hours eating dinner and drinking beer with all my friends

Auto-X really does depend on the group of people you fall into. Some local groups are very standoffish to new people. I've seen officers of the club run off new and old members alike. I spent nearly 5 years in various positions in the local club running things only to realize in the end, its really about who you spend your time with that makes or breaks it. I've met some of the nicest people in auto-x and some of the worst at the same time. Its almost like its a reflection of the real world.

As for the seat time. I'll be the first to admit the cubic dollar to seat time ratio does tend to be on the sucky side of things. I think some people choose it because the entry cost is low and to be competitive at a National level is cheaper than what it would cost to do so it road racing.

SWEET pics man. The car looks so good, gives me more motivation to get out there and sand on mine for painting this summer.

Track days are on my list this year, and an auto-x or two since I've yet to give it a shot.

Thanks man. Any road courses near you? There's a pretty good one up this way in Pueblo, and it even has a fresh surface as of last Spring.

We've got ASR (arroyo seco raceway), it's about 2.5 hours south of me. Not bad. The surfaces on it suck(for a track), but trackdays up there are CHEAP ($40-70) so it'll be my go-to when the car is ready for some real flogging.

With the extra loop open that looks like it would be fun, and damn that's cheap. Pueblo (PMP) is a little longer at 2.2mi, but 2-3x as much $$ to run.

didn't read the thread

autocross is popular because its a lot cheaper than track

Not sure about that on the surface with that 40-70 dollar track day top above. Of course with track days you have to budget for entire car replacement costs.

This is why I quit SCCA.

Holy damn. I hate that color, and i hate stock-looking NAs...

But i love that car. Looks incredible. Well-done SIR! :drool:

Thanks. Yeah that blue is kind of a love it or hate it deal...I personally love it :) Not like every other fucking red NA Miata on the planet.

Agreed. I used to hate the blue on my car, now I couldn't imagine owning a miata that wasn't bright ass blue.

On a per minute basis
Track day $165-225 for 80-100 min. $1.65-2.813 per minute.
Auto-x $50-60 for 6-10 min. $5.00-10.00 per minute.

Whole car replacement cost not withstanding of course because no idiot ever found the only light pole in the parking lot.

in my area i get about 4 runs. it costs $20, and i get about 4 minutes of driving time tops. Typically nee dot be there from about 7-8 a.m. to at least 1-2 p.m.

so about $5 per minute for the course, then your day is blown and you leave with sunburn and sleep off hte rest of the day.

Thats just event cost. Now add in the consumables (fuel for the car, brake pads/rotors, tires, ect) and see where it comes out.

then autox wins hands down.

Track days may be cheap, but if you want to compete (as in, go to an event that has official timing and scoring and a declared winner) on a big track you're talking time trials or road racing, and that gets a lot more expensive fast.

Autocross also typically represents a less significant overall time investment, because it's usually closer than a big track, and thus also usually avoids the need for overnight stays at hotels.

I used to do a dozen track days a year and maybe one autocross, but that changed after my kids were born and I didn't want to spend that much time away from home. Now I do one track day and a lot more autocrossing.

--Ian

I'm with Ian ^^^

After love love loving track days, even having them comp'd for instructing, I found them too costly, even on RA1's that would last me more than a season. After factoring in travel, wear & tear, hotel, even with free track time I was in it for well over $500 per day.

I too hated the three runs only events, but after doing a couple Lotus Club events (12-13 runs) I was hooked. I completely understand AutoX isn't for everyone, but it is a path you can compete in, without breaking the bank. I'm often done in a half day, even after travel time, and THAT's why I love having so many local events available. I also love it having been a snow ski racer, the cross over is amazingly similar in terms of pre-race routine, rewarding a quick study, ...and waiting around (unfortunately).

Just like ski racing made me a MUCH better skiier, AutoXing will make you a much better driver. Don't listen to the crap about needing to unlearn for road racing. About the only thing in AutoX you need not apply to RR, is the "connect the dot" lines taken by a lot of AWD or high HP beasts that don't turn very well. Miata lines in AutoX are very much like RR, it's all about carrying speed. AutoX teaches you to look ahead, and like RR, rewards smoothness, concentration & technique.

I always recommend to my friend with fast cars, or friends who want to try an HPDE, to AutoX a few times first, to learn in an environment where you'll likely not need to buy a new car if you make a mistake.

My wife loves AutoX, and I plan to have my boys out there too, as soon as they're licensed. I often see whole families participating, with the kids competing in Karts, and the parents co-driving, now THAT's pretty cool!

One more thing AutoX teaches you that transfers well to the track.

"Read the rules before spending money on new go-fast parts for the car"