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-   -   Suspension Choice: GC/Koni vs. Budget Oriented Coilovers(<$1100) (https://www.miataturbo.net/race-prep-75/suspension-choice-gc-koni-vs-budget-oriented-coilovers-%241100-69211/)

Lincoln Logs 10-31-2012 11:20 AM

Suspension Choice: GC/Koni vs. Budget Oriented Coilovers(<$1100)
 
2 Attachment(s)
Now that the new motor is in and the rest of the car has finally seen attention it needs I wanted to look at optimizing my suspension a bit more. I've been rocking Koni Yellow SA & First Gen Flyin' Miata Springs along with Eibach Spec F&R sways since I bought the car back in 2010(These items were installed by the PO). Until last year I felt the set up had been adequate for autocrossing & HPDE events. However, when I had door bars welded into the car I noticed a change.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1351696821

This is also an older picture, I've since upgraded to 15x8 Konig's with 225/45/15 RS-3s.

The suspension which once felt adequate is now softer due to the increased chassis rigidity. The big question moving forward is what is the most cost effective solution for improving my suspension. I am also keeping in mind later next year I'll be adding the 949Racing front air dam & matched Super Miata wing.

The three idea's that I have had thus far;

1: Flying Miata V-Maxx XXtreme coilovers - Track Pack.
These coilovers seem to have done well enough on their targa cars and FM customer service is top notch. However, long term reliability of this item is up in the air. How much am I sacrificing with these compared to used Flex coilovers?

2: Used Flex, Stance, etc.
Save a little money going used and get a higher dollar item for less. The caveat I see to this is being at the mercy of the forums and never knowing what kind of abuse they've seen.

3: GC Coilover Sleeves for my existing Konis.
I see this as my cost effective solution. Another added benefit is getting the exact rates I want. I also have read into the limitations of my Konis and I might want to re-valve my front shocks which adds $$$. Another downside these shocks are getting on the older side(8+ years old).


Does anyone have experience with these set ups or have a comprable solution?

Savington 10-31-2012 11:25 AM

You have two options:

1. Save more money and buy XIDAs
2. Buy something used so when you inevitably sell it and buy XIDAs, you don't end up losing too much money

soviet 10-31-2012 11:29 AM


Originally Posted by Savington (Post 945161)
You have two options:

1. Save more money and buy XIDAs
2. Buy something used so when you inevitably sell it and buy XIDAs, you don't end up losing too much money

Pretty much this. I had Koni + GC sleeves that I bought new. Took a good $500 hit when I sold them used a year later.

albertogti117 10-31-2012 11:31 AM

IIRC Koni re-valves are pretty pricey. You might be better off going with a set of Koni Race + GC coilovers if you want to go that route. You could always buy a set of used Bilstein's and get those re-valved from Stewart or FCM (If they still do it).

Ryan_G 10-31-2012 11:31 AM

One cheap solution that you should be able to sell for about how much you put into them would be to buy the MSM bilstein's that 18psi has for sale and then add sleeves, perches, and new springs. You should be able to do all this for roughly $600 and then you can save for xida's if you want the absolute best suspension. Many people on this forum including hustler will attest to how the MSM bilsteins are some of the best if not the best shocks short of xidas. Use 450/300 F/R spring rates unless you plan to revalve them.

brainzata 10-31-2012 01:28 PM

Either save for the xida,afco,fcm or tein flex. Or keep searching for good deals on used quality set ups. Sell that cusco bar set up and fund your suspension.

Leafy 10-31-2012 01:31 PM

Do it once do it right, Xida/FCM elite or better. Remember those Penskes are only a couple hundred more than the xidas similarly equipped.

ThePass 11-02-2012 03:01 AM

To those suggesting a $1800 coilover to someone who is asking for something with a budget ceiling of $1100, I ask "really?" That's more than 50% more than his budget.

We all know how good the XIDAs and FCMs are, but "XIDA or bust" isn't really helpful to someone who doesn't expect to have close to $2k to throw on a coilover. Obviously, we'd all love to run those, but we can't all afford to. Hell, I'm on DGR coilovers. Made in Taiwanlandkong. But that's what I could afford (traded my old spring/shock combo + cash for them) - you can still be pretty fast on coilovers that aren't the hot poop.

Suggestions within his budget would be a lot more helpful.

Personally, I think that the best way a person could spend less than $1k for something new is the FM VMAXX 'track' coilover - stiff enough spring rates for what the OP is planning, and shock valving that is just OK but is at least intended for those rates. But, used Flex are probably the best bang for the buck, it just comes down to patience to find a set for sale.

-Ryan

Lincoln Logs 11-02-2012 03:16 AM


Originally Posted by Savington (Post 945161)
You have two options:

1. Save more money and buy XIDAs
2. Buy something used so when you inevitably sell it and buy XIDAs, you don't end up losing too much money

Alas I wish this were much more obtainable with my budget currently.


Originally Posted by soviet (Post 945164)
Pretty much this. I had Koni + GC sleeves that I bought new. Took a good $500 hit when I sold them used a year later.

Keep in mind I did not pay for the current suspension, the Koni + FM Springs came with the car.


Originally Posted by albertogti117 (Post 945167)
IIRC Koni re-valves are pretty pricey. You might be better off going with a set of Koni Race + GC coilovers if you want to go that route. You could always buy a set of used Bilstein's and get those re-valved from Stewart or FCM (If they still do it).


Originally Posted by Ryan_G (Post 945168)
One cheap solution that you should be able to sell for about how much you put into them would be to buy the MSM bilstein's that 18psi has for sale and then add sleeves, perches, and new springs. You should be able to do all this for roughly $600 and then you can save for xida's if you want the absolute best suspension. Many people on this forum including hustler will attest to how the MSM bilsteins are some of the best if not the best shocks short of xidas. Use 450/300 F/R spring rates unless you plan to revalve them.

I have to ask the question are the MSM Bilstein's really that much better than my adjustable Konis? From what I understand the Konis should be able to handle the 450/300 spring set up as well.


Originally Posted by brainzata (Post 945214)
Either save for the xida,afco,fcm or tein flex. Or keep searching for good deals on used quality set ups. Sell that cusco bar set up and fund your suspension.

No selling the rollbar set up, welded in. :-) Used flex would be nice but it's a waiting game to get them.


Originally Posted by Leafy (Post 945215)
Do it once do it right, Xida/FCM elite or better. Remember those Penskes are only a couple hundred more than the xidas similarly equipped.

Again slightly out of budget.


Originally Posted by ThePass (Post 945778)
To those suggesting a $1800 coilover to someone who is asking for something with a budget ceiling of $1100, I ask "really?" That's more than 50% more than his budget.

We all know how good the XIDAs and FCMs are, but "XIDA or bust" isn't really helpful to someone who doesn't expect to have close to $2k to throw on a coilover. Obviously, we'd all love to run those, but we can't all afford to. Hell, I'm on DGR coilovers. Made in Taiwanlandkong. But that's what I could afford (traded my old spring/shock combo + cash for them) - you can still be pretty fast on coilovers that aren't the hot poop.

Suggestions within his budget would be a lot more helpful.

Personally, I think that the best way a person could spend less than $1k for something new is the FM VMAXX 'track' coilover - stiff enough spring rates for what the OP is planning, and shock valving that is just OK but is at least intended for those rates. But, used Flex are probably the best bang for the buck, it just comes down to patience to find a set for sale.

-Ryan

I've been tempted to put my spring/shock combo up for trade on cr.net for giggles and see what happens. I'd like to keep this on the lower end of the $$$ spectrum.

Savington 11-02-2012 03:30 AM


Originally Posted by ThePass (Post 945778)
To those suggesting a $1800 coilover to someone who is asking for something with a budget ceiling of $1100, I ask "really?" That's more than 50% more than his budget.

Really. If you actually care about the car's performance, but you don't have $2k to drop on good shocks, buy used and upgrade to good shocks later on when you have the money. If you don't care about the car's performance, then it doesn't really matter what you buy.

ThePass 11-02-2012 03:48 AM

I don't know man, I think there is a middle ground. Coilovers that cost as much as some miatas aren't the answer for everyone. Yeah, your car will always be capable of a couple seconds more at the track if you spent an extra $1k, but there are a lot of people whose priorities are more of a mix between budget, performance and fun factor.

I'd love to find a way to make XIDAs or FCMs happen on my car eventually, so I agree as well that those are the answer when you decide you want a certain amount of performance from the car...

But I'm playing devil's advocate here because I spent 2 years on AGXs, 4 years on Koni Yellows, and now I'm on a Taiwan-built coilover, and guess what, I've loved racing the car the entire time. My lap times would be faster on baller coilovers, but I couldn't afford those, and I'm having just as much fun competing and racing anyways.

I definitely agree with the buy used advice though - best way to get more for your $$, on anything across the board other than probably tires and brake pads haha

-Ryan

Savington 11-02-2012 04:02 AM

Nothing I can say will be as convincing as a test drive in a car that's got XIDAs underneath it. They are just that good. If you don't have the budget for them, find the budget. If you can't afford them, buy used and save more money. There is nothing that is even half as good, even for half the money.

ThePass 11-02-2012 04:07 AM

I definitely will have to give you that - my opinion is only half-formed because I don't have the perspective of someone who has experience with the full range of coilovers, my own experience has been one of trying to make the most of what I do have.

I have already talked a bit with Shaikh about moving on to something from him, and I believe he's going to be at the Auto Club MC so I might get to discuss that with him more - I've at least ridden in cars with his stuff on them, and I know they are great, but as far as XIDAs go, I have zero experience.

-Ryan

Vilko 11-02-2012 07:51 AM

I believe Savington saying they are that xidas are great, but people saying "find the money" isnt really helpful.
Im in a similar position to the OP (building on a budget) and it would be nice to have the best of the best, but its not practical. People say similar stuff about OS Giken diffs. Trying to find any information about diffs other than "spend double your budget and buy a giken or fail at life" is a struggle.
Maybe someone with experience with multiple setups can list the benifits of each (on the track and the street) and order them so people like the OP can decide what best suits them?

hustler 11-02-2012 08:14 AM

Buy 18psi's MSM dampers, ebay perches, Swift springs, ???, profit.

Braineack 11-02-2012 09:04 AM


Originally Posted by brainzata (Post 945214)
Either save for the xida,afco,fcm or tein flex. Or keep searching for good deals on used quality set ups. Sell that cusco bar set up and fund your suspension.

I have Flex and still want Xida.

Ryan_G 11-02-2012 09:09 AM


Originally Posted by hustler (Post 945802)
Buy 18psi's MSM dampers, ebay perches, Swift springs, ???, profit.

That is twice now this advice has been given. It will be the cheapest route for a very good result.

18psi 11-02-2012 09:10 AM

I want 18psi's bilsteins:party:

hustler 11-02-2012 09:20 AM


Originally Posted by Braineack (Post 945814)
I have Flex and still want Xida.

I have 5100s and still want dat Xida.

Leafy 11-02-2012 09:54 AM


Originally Posted by hustler (Post 945825)
I have 5100s and still want dat Xida.

Wait, you have AST 5100s? So you have xidas without the xida sticker on them?

Ryan_G 11-02-2012 10:03 AM


Originally Posted by Rokomis (Post 945780)
I have to ask the question are the MSM Bilstein's really that much better than my adjustable Konis? From what I understand the Konis should be able to handle the 450/300 spring set up as well.

Being able to handle the spring rate and controlling the springs well are two entirely different things. The MSM bilsteins are far better than the konis. The largest benefit of going this route is that you will have a great setup that will hold its value until you want to upgrade to the perfect setup.

Braineack 11-02-2012 10:21 AM

Everything is far better than konis.

Lincoln Logs 11-02-2012 11:30 AM


Originally Posted by hustler (Post 945802)
Buy 18psi's MSM dampers, ebay perches, Swift springs, ???, profit.

This is quickly sounding like what I'll do.


Originally Posted by Ryan_G (Post 945818)
That is twice now this advice has been given. It will be the cheapest route for a very good result.


Originally Posted by Ryan_G (Post 945841)
Being able to handle the spring rate and controlling the springs well are two entirely different things. The MSM bilsteins are far better than the konis. The largest benefit of going this route is that you will have a great setup that will hold its value until you want to upgrade to the perfect setup.

I don't doubt their worth, I am just surprised that they are so good and also an OEM shock. Are the 450/300 spring rates preferred for these shocks?

Ryan_G 11-02-2012 11:41 AM


Originally Posted by Rokomis (Post 945863)
I don't doubt their worth, I am just surprised that they are so good and also an OEM shock. Are the 450/300 spring rates preferred for these shocks?

It shouldn't be that suprising that a multibillion dollar automaker can make a very good performance shock if they try. The reason most factory shocks aren't that good is because performance is not the main goal.

From what I understand the stock valving is only good for up to 450/300 before it starts to be degrade performance of the shock. You would need to revalve them if you wanted to go higher and maintain proper performance.

sixshooter 11-02-2012 12:33 PM

I'm going to agree with the MSM suggestion, but with Summit Racing brand springs for the cost savings (~$35 apiece). 450/300 or 550/350 in seven inch length.

http://www.summitracing.com/search/d...th-in/7-000-in

Lincoln Logs 11-02-2012 06:05 PM


Originally Posted by Ryan_G (Post 945871)
It shouldn't be that suprising that a multibillion dollar automaker can make a very good performance shock if they try. The reason most factory shocks aren't that good is because performance is not the main goal.

From what I understand the stock valving is only good for up to 450/300 before it starts to be degrade performance of the shock. You would need to revalve them if you wanted to go higher and maintain proper performance.

I guess I say that since most of my experience with OEM shocks is exactly that, they are not performance oriented. It's all perspective when it comes to that I guess. 450/300 is what I was looking for so I'll have to pick up some shocks and get to it. Is there a preferred eBay vendor that has the correct sleeves?


Originally Posted by sixshooter (Post 945889)
I'm going to agree with the MSM suggestion, but with Summit Racing brand springs for the cost savings (~$35 apiece). 450/300 or 550/350 in seven inch length.

Summit Racing Coil-Over Springs - 2.500 in. Inside Diameter (in) - 7.000 in. Length (in) - SummitRacing.com

I would not have thought to look at summit for springs, that is a really cost effective option to consider.

emilio700 11-05-2012 11:41 AM


Originally Posted by Leafy (Post 945835)
Wait, you have AST 5100s? So you have xidas without the xida sticker on them?

5100's built by AST Holland before we (AST USA and yours truly) designed the Xida. Less stroke, some slightly different internals and valving I think. Still great dampers shocks, just not quite as Xida's.

tomiboy 11-05-2012 01:30 PM


Originally Posted by Rokomis (Post 945994)
I guess I say that since most of my experience with OEM shocks is exactly that, they are not performance oriented. It's all perspective when it comes to that I guess. 450/300 is what I was looking for so I'll have to pick up some shocks and get to it. Is there a preferred eBay vendor that has the correct sleeves?


I would not have thought to look at summit for springs, that is a really cost effective option to consider.

You better hurry up then and get those MSM Bilsteins! I was about to buy them myself, but drove a miata with Xidas 700/400 yesterday and decided to wait until spring and get the Xidas. I can afford them...I'm just cheap:eek5:
I was sure they would handle great just wasn't so sure about street ride in potholed Chicago area roads. With bigger sways and poly bushings the ride was still acceptable. I would say the ride was more noisy than uncomfortable!

compaddict 11-05-2012 03:50 PM

Why all the Koni hate? ave been running shortened yellows with race valving for eight years with 800ish swifts and don't find anything wrong with them. I am in the process of changing over to Penskes DA to get the last 10-15% out of my car but they cost four times as much...

Savington 11-05-2012 03:56 PM


Originally Posted by compaddict (Post 946816)
Why all the Koni hate? ave been running shortened yellows with race valving for eight years with 800ish swifts and don't find anything wrong with them.

I found 2 seconds a lap switching from RACEs w/ 700/450s to Xida-CS w/ 800/550s. The car was downright scary to drive on the Konis, and a breeze to drive on the Xidas.

The KONIs are probably better than 90% of the setups out there, but Xidas are just so much better.


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