Swap VVT into NA, or just pickup an NB2?
 

After eating the 2nd 1.6 in the '90, it obviously needs a VVT engine.

I figure my realistic costs for a VVT swap are:
$1000 for an engine
$500 in exhaust (RB header and new test pipe)
$850-1000 for MS3 PnP
$500+ in random parts here and there like mount arms, IAT sensors, etc

Since I know shit always goes wrong, or unexpected issues crop up, $3500 is likely a realistic budget. However, then I'm still left with yet another junkyard engine.


It seems like you can pick up clean NB2s in the $5-6k range.

So now I'm thinking, pick up an NB2, swap over the XIDAs and Wilwoods, part out of the remaining bits of both cars and move on?

Well if the goal is just n/a vvt power with suspension and brakes and then spend a ton of time at the track, I'd probably lean toward the NB2 idea

I've wondered this same thing and I've always leaned toward just spending a little bit more up front and get an NB2.

Of course that's not what I did but...

That's basically it.

That's what I wanted to do to begin with a couple of years ago, but NB prices weren't quite down far enough, and I knew I'd need extra funds for the safety equipment, wheels/tires, etc.

I figure at least this way, it'd be stock VVT power (but that would still be FAR better than worn-out 1.6s) and later on I can install the squaretop/exhaust/MS3x.

Really depends on what you want. NB2's are fucking awesome, i'd love one. I also love my NA and i'm balls deep in it, so there's no going back anyways.

NB2 drivetrain in a clean NA with bracing would make an awesome car.

The NB tub is a lot nicer and doesn't flex nearly as much as the NA.

FatKao is doing this right now since his NA was being a PITA. If you're looking to do PTE, you can "get" sport brakes for free with a dyno reclass. It's definitely the cleaner option in terms of electronics since the only thing you really need to mess with wiring wise is a GM AIT and MAP; however, the VVT swap into NAs (1.6 and 1.8 cars) is really well documented and everything has been sorted out with both the MS3 and AEM computers.

you could just swap a 1.8 in and not give a shit. If you aren't really doing classed events or anything, it seems like a lot less headache and much cheaper than either option.

I priced out trying to buy a new car, move my parts over, and selling the rest of the shit and its almost a total loss. If you really think about it, the only thing worth it on your car are the modified parts. Parting out a broken engine and assorted used interior parts & accessories doesn't return much, especially since the 90s don't have a worthwhile diff either (transmission is worth it, but at $250-$300...not much).

then again...blown engine would be easy to convince me of a lot of things.

NB's are much better cars.

I've already got Wilwoods at all 4 corners, I'm less concerned about classing then I am building a quick, reliable track vehicle.

Because I literally hate working on cars. I only do it because I can't yet afford to have a shop take care of prep and maintenance.

I can't get behind the idea of swapping engines again just for an NA1.8 (BP4W's seem to be impossible to find).

My car also haz no Torsen.

I figure if I can get an NB2 for $6k or less with a Torsen and solid drivetrain, it might be worth it.

I can sell the Hard Dog Roll Bar and Frog Arms off the NA, figure I could get another few hundred out of the small random stuff like the reroute, radiator in good shape, rear center panel, locally.

Sell the suspension/brakes/interior out of the NB2 for a few hundred more, and likely be near break even on VVT/Torsen into NA6 vs swapping over the good parts and selling the rest from both.


Of course that's why I'm asking, to see if I'm thinking clearly.

I guess I have a 99, so I can't complain much. I would do like FatKao and buy a heavily used NB. I think he got a 2001 w/ 170k for about 3k-ish.

Don't be a fuck up like me and drop big cash on a lightly used NB, the miata can take it ;) Then again...you don't want to work on your car...*shrug*

I really don't think the "swap your parts over to a new car" will break anywhere close to even. My math sucks, but I had a hard time trying to find parts worth money in the car once I removed the parts I wanted to keep.

I don't know about about the frog arms, but pretty sure the roll bar will swap over.

The Frog Arms fit all 1990-2005.

For the Rollbar, I think some do and some don't. I have the HDHCDD "M1" which I'm 99% sure does NOT work on the NB.

I believe the NA bar will actually fit as a friend of mine did this when he went from an NA to an NB. I'll check with him to confirm, but IIRC you won't be able to fold the top down if it has a glass rear window. Eliminate soft top, acquire hard top, win at life :)

Having owned and driven both an NA and NB, I'll ask if you've driven an NB in anger yet? I sometimes miss the lightness and simplicity of the NA. Sometimes. When people say "The NB is a better car and the NA is a better Miata" I tend to agree.

Also, don't get hooked on VVT. The BP4W in the 99/00 is a solid contender as well, and should be cheaper than an NB2 at this point.

Edit: Friend messaged me back, says he moved his "HCHTDD" from his NA to his NB. Should be able to check dimensions on HD's website from there.

Except that there are way more VVT motors out there versus the unicorn BP4W head. You can pick up a junkyard VVT motor for $800 or you can pick up a BP4W head (only) for $800.

Yeah, it flows better than the VVT head; however, spinning the motor gets expensive quick and usable torque is always fun.

I was under the impression the runners/combustion chambers were the same between the two, BP6D just adds VVT?

AFAIK (and judging from Emilio-posts), you can make more peak power N/A with a BP4W, but that's when you're spending some serious coin on a Miata motor. IIRC, you'll wind up with cam clearance issues if you're running huge cams on the BP6D head with the valve cover whereas you'd be OK on the BP4W.

Personally, I think that the availability and drive-ability of the BP6D makes it a no brainer for the track. If you get really deep into it, you can replicate stuff like hustler's 85mph @ 35mpg tune.

e: remembered some specifics

NB2 all the way. If you're doing it on your terms just wait it out and get a good deal, I got a high mileage NB2 for $4,500 with a hard top. Roll bars swap any which way as long as you don't have a glass top. Worst case swap the top over from your NA. Or take out the soft top and run with a hard top only like a real man.

Most of the wear parts (suspension) swaps over from my NA. After parting out my NA and buying a bunch of maintenance items (front ball joints, outer tie rod ends, brake lines) I'm $3,600 into the upgrade. Still have to buy hubs & bearings and engine parts. Will need at least a timing belt kit and valve cover gasket. I have some of the radiator hoses already.

Haven't started parting out the NB2 yet.

I bought my NA already built with a 99 1.8 installed. The previous owner spend $2500 just on the engine install. I'd say throw the 1.8 in the car you have.

If time and location allow it, to save some money on the motor, buy a wrecked NB2 and part it out to make up some money back.

Having owned a 91 that was a dedicate race car with all the fix -ins . I too thought about swapping a VVT over in it. I end up selling it for a very nice price and picking up a low mileage 2002 NB . I can tell you this ... I don't regret it. The Nb2 's is a much nicer car and the chassis is much stiffer . Now since I've added almost all of the same goodies I had on the Na it's alot faster than my old 91

That sounds awesome. As for being a real man, my current track car has no hard top or soft top and gets driven to the track rain or shine.

Yeah, all my wear parts are good. I think the only thing I'd need to do is have the NB rack depowered and welded, all my hubs/bearings front and rear only have ~15 hours of track time.

Unless I run across a smoking deal, I just don't see it being that cheap. Add in the need for a Torsen and you have nearly the cost of an NB2.

Hence my dilemma.

Not a bad idea, I have the garage space and the time.

It's just a matter of if I want a hacked up '90, or a basically stock NB2. My desire for reliability is what is pushing me toward the NB2.

If your main goal is reliability and seat time, it seems a no brainer to buy an NB2.

Not than an NA w/ a VVT motor can't be reliable, I just imagine the initial install and making reliable phase will be lost of labor and time...

Given that, I'd say just buy the NB2.

I'm in the middle of a VVT swap into my NA. It's been a lot of work and there is still ton more to do. No way I'd be able to get it done if I didn't know a bunch of people who really enjoy wrenching.

Thanks for all the input gents.

I need to get the NC sold first since I just picked up the tow rig.

Then I'll probably work on pulling apart the NA, selling what few things may be worth it to someone, then begin the process of looking for a good deal on an NB.

Another reason I like this idea is I learned a few things building the first one that I'd like to change for the next one.

I was trying to say that an NB1 would be cheaper than an NB2 if buying the entire car. :jerkit: The NB1 is not a bad platform.

AFAIK yes, but the BP6D adds both VVT and VTCS

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...cs_pics_-4-jpg

Because, you know, VTCS is awesome :cool:

Cams are definitely not the same:
We all know the N/A formula, its really no secret:

I/H/E mods on a healthy BP6D engine (10:1, VVT) BP4W intake manifold (VICS rather than VTCS) and like, Racing Beat header and ECU is about as good as it gets for readily available OEM domestic or OTS parts.

Yes, you could always stick a square top on the BP6D if you want to put $400 into a manifold, but is it really worth it? Yes, you give up .5 point of compression and VVT with a NB1, but I'm honestly not sure what that's worth in the grand scheme of things. No clue how "stock" OP wants this car to be. You pay the weight penalty for an NB but you get more power potential. For a superhpappyfuntimes track-only car, put the NB drivetrain in the lightest NA chassis you can find (braced up NA6 w/brakes) and win at power:weight. For a fun and tolerable dual use car, do the same as above with an NBx chassis. It's not rocket surgery.

If someone asspacks my NB and I can salvage the drivetrain, I'm doing the NA6 thing. Or fuckit I'm building an Exocet becausepower:weight :party:

I'm confused by these statements, please elaborate. Actually, don't. It does not really matter and I don't care. :giggle:

^I don't mind eventually doing bolt-ons and a tune. If I do the swap into an NA6, I'd start off with all of that anyway.

Squaretop is already on the way. If I stick with the NA6, I'll likely sell it and just buy a JDM motor out of Dallas.

I think the main thing is thinking about dropping potentially another $5k+ and still having the NA, vs having something a bit cleaner, no hacking up for a Standalone, more room in the engine bay, etc.

Agree with all this, starting with an NB is definitely less work. Except the hacking up part, not sure where you got this. I had to cut exactly 2 wires to install my MS and they were to adapt the IAT sensor and extend the harness. I don't think I even had to do that, but chose to do it as I wanted to use weatherpacks as opposed to just jamming pins into the stock connector with electrical tape ;)

Well true. I'm also thinking about all that money that doesn't = track time.

Maybe I should just find a '99-00 engine and run it off the crummy barn door AFM and 1.6 ECU so I can at least get back out on track.

Spinning a BP up to 8500RPM is an expensive proposition.

Having lower end torque is awesome.

FTFY

Want torque? Get a [insert: turbo/diesel/roots blower/more displacement/V6/V8]. :rofl: Generally a 4 cylinder engine is not a fabulous place to start when one is looking for torque, but I see what you are saying. ;)

If the price difference was more than $1,000 between an NB1 and an NB2, I buy the NB1 and spend the $1,000 on hookers and blow I/H/E and standalone ECU, but that's just me :dunno:

lol man, that's a good joke. So hilarious when goalposts are constantly being moved, heh

:hahano: No seriously, you were the one talking about spinning it over stock RPM and complaining about usable low end torque.

You're the one that started bringing up the BP4W, but hey, I'm the insane guy.

I know it's widely accepted the NB is a stiffer (and nicer) chassis; but I'm genuinely curious why exactly. What is so different on the NB that increased it's rigidity so much (other than the added bracing throughout the years that can be added to the older cars)?

Sorry if this has been covered before. What kind of bracing are we talking to make an NA as "stiff" as a stock NB? Am I there yet with a rollbar/frame rails/hardtop/na8 diff brace? The car feels pretty damn stiff now compared to stock at this point.

True, I brought it up as a viable option however I don't remember the ad hominem.

You might want to look at the definition of ad hom, again.

Couple of options, buy an NB2 and swap parts, buy an MSM and pull turbo off, throw a K24 in the current car.

the NB2 have the butterfly brace thingy. NB1 has the rear subframe U brace (not sure, this might be an NA8 item). the NA8 have the front subframe brace?

might be missing some here...

1. In the running
2. Makes no sense to me at all.
3. Would be awesome, have a feeling it will be even more than I want to spend.

I'd also like to build a 99+ engine and drop in the current car, but the prices for used engines around me is just insane.

If I could find a worn out one for a few hundred buck, I'd go that route.

You aren't going to break even. We are talking about cars here.

If you hate working on cars it's a little hard to give you advice on what do to because "work on" is a very subjective term.

How did you blow the previous motors? Were they turbo? If it were me I would just sell the car complete for a good price and start from scratch on a new car (if you go 1.8 you will essentially have to modify/sell off your 1.6 stuff anyway). Usually for me, if I'm thinking about doing something the desire is there... and it sounds like to me you want a fresh start. Nothing boosts motivation like a new project. Who knows you might enjoy working on cars again.

If it's going to cost $4500ish to get an NB engine and Torsen in the NA, OR spend $4500 on an NB and put all my good suspension/brake stuff on............you essentially end up with the same thing. We aren't talking about residual values or selling it.

Work on, isn't very subjective, don't be pedantic. I don't even like having to change the oil. But I do motor swaps, brake work, etc. so I can afford to get out on track. Some people like tinkering, tuning, etc. I don't. All I want to do is drive. It's what I miss about the sportbikes, insane fast, dead nuts reliable.

The first 1.6 died a wobbly crank pulley death, then the LNC 1.6 I was sold as "good" also died a wobbly crank pulley death in 10 sessions (well, it's not completely dead, but it's well on its way).

But selling a '90 with a dying 1.6 with XIDAs/rebuilt hubs/bushings/Wilwoods on all 4 corners, etc..........well that would be completely insane. You'd likely not get much more for it than the suspension itself.

I'm in a similar boat with converting my dad's 91 garage queen into a "track" car. The chassis is an extremely well maintained 91.... for it being a 91. No rust, little abuse, no electrical gremlins from any POs, etc, etc. My decision is much easier than yours, my dad is too attached to the car to sell it for a NB. On the downside, for him at least cause idaf:-D, he probably won't drive the car as hard because of the attachment and time invested into the car.

So that might something to consider.... which car would be able to drive harder and not subconsciously worry about it as much as the other.

You're well and above stiffer than a stock NB.

Sure, a stock NB is stiffer than a stock NA, but at that point we're comparing "al dente" to "definitely cooked" angel hair pasta.

They're both floppy as fuck.

^I honestly wouldn't care about that either way. That's why I bought a Miata to begin with vs say tracking my old MS3 or '13 GT Mustang, or even my current NC Miata.

If I put an NA/NB in the tire wall, pull off the good parts and find another shell.

Seems like there's more pros for a NB2 vs your NA in this situation. I didn't see on this thread, is your end goal TTE/D? Based on the fast TT guys on other threads in this sub-forum, points cars are faster than dyno re-classed cars. NB2 also mean less mechanical work, which is another plus for you :D

Listen to Marcus. I wish i had his NB1 instead of my MSM. I also wish i had had a chance to go for a hard run in that beast at MATG. (This year? Pwetty pwease?)

A fast, reliable track car is the main goal.

The more I thought about a real TTx car, the more I realized I wasn't going to worry to much about fresh A6s and the like to try to win a Regional, and I really don't care about building a Nationally competitive car.

Essentially, I'll build the car mostly the way I want, then run it in whatever class it ends up in. For instance my Wilwoods don't make sense for the +2, but they will cut down on consumables in the long run (and they feel amazing), etc.

For sure, it's already more sorted out than last year. I might have some other small changes by that point too.


I feel your pain on not wanting to buy fresh rubber just to be competitive. The costs of being competitive with RR has me sticking with auto-x for the past couple of years. I figure I've got to take small steps getting into a track-car, I know it'll be a downward spiral of expense once I do commit to it.

I think if a good deal on a NB2 pops up, you should jump on it. Could be worth it in the long run.

Buddy, have you driven an NB2? In my opinion, there's really no comparison between NA and NB, and quite frankly, i'm not entirely sure why people like NAs.


Oh and Marcus, i'm gonna give you a ride in the MX6. :D

Meh, I can't fathom that an NA and NB that are equally prepped are "zOmG this one is so much better than the other one."

I can say for certain if my NC was prepped like my NA it would handily take care of an NA or NB......but I'm willing to potentially wad up a $1x,xxx car on track.

I currently went thru something similar and chose to put a VVT in my car. you know your car and it's issues, what if you get into a NB that's someone else's basketcase? I like the NA stying better and I fit better as well, which made the choice easier for me though.

where are you located? I MIGHT could help you get a motor if you wanna go that route.

I'm in Tulsa, OK.

Shoot me a message on what you have. It'd likely have to be a smoking deal to make it worth the $325ish in gas roundtrip

Ah I guess I forgot that you mentioned the engine is broken.

Anyway, you don't enjoy doing the work... but know you have to as all options entail quite a bit of it. If you are looking for the option with the least work that's a different story and it certainly is subjective. In a nutshell, With your options, you will either be swapping a whole brake setup over to a new car, some suspension bits, etc, getting new suspension bits, and getting an exhaust made or simply swapping a motor, doing some wiring, getting new primaries, or downpipe made for your old car.

If residual cost isn't proprietary, then the only thing you have to ask yourself is:
1) What work do I personally hate LESS? And
2) Which car do I enjoy driving more?

Period... Then you make a decision.

Personally, swapping an engine is like clockwork anymore, and I'd rather wire a new one in than part out a car that I know the ins and outs of. Selling shit sucks and is more work to me then just getting rid of a blown motor...

The only NB i ever drove had me delighted to get back into my NA. I think it's more of the condition of the car than anything, as most stock NAs are on stock motors with blown suspension with more miles, and most NB are lesser miles in nicer condition.

That is a generalization though, so not always true.

Personally I love both, but I'm happy with my minimalist NA, i love the 90-93 dash and the styling, and really love the popup lights.

Older cars will always be more raw and nostalgic to times when a lot of amenities just didn't exist. It's simplistic but not everyone appreciates this... You're dead on IMO.

This is extreme and a bit off topic, but I can't tell enough people how much I appreciate dumb stuff like roll up windows and manual steering for the simple fact that it works and it's easy to fix. There's a time and a place for heated seats and power everything, and it's not preferred in my fun car, but it is in my daily. It's a bit extreme in relation to miatas but, that's just my general opinion.

It's the same thing with bikes. if I want to romp around like an idiot, wheelie, and not worry about scraping up something or breaking it I ride the supermoto, when I want to cruise around and be conservative I ride the Aprilia. Same shit.

Oh damn...

The MSM would be cheaper after parts sold, Racing Hart Wheels 600, complete turbo kit 800, bilsteins 300, 6sp 800. Ad a racing beat header and a Reverant ECU plus your good parts from your NA and profit. Plus it has a kickass diff for the track.

Plus if you ever want to get into NASA TT you'll have the worst classing of everyone!

Does putting a VVT engine in an NA add a ton of points?

Not the topic of discussion. However, an engine swap means you have to get a dyno reclass.

Now, go download the NASA TT rulebook and read it about 12 times.