Tire Hierarchy chat
 

Kind of like the suspension thread, I want to establish an easy to find/search list of tires and how well they perform compared to R comps and adjacent in performance summer tires. As always, run a 205 on a 8", run a 225 on a 9", run over yourself you're in SM.

Assumptions: 2 minute road course, 2-3 miles in length, the NT-01 will do a lap in 2 minutes, 205/50R15.
Notes: A 225/45R15 will be -.75 to -1 second faster than a 205.

Fast
Linglong L688 (long live the king)
Hoosier R75 (call the chiropractor)
Hoosier R80 (jesus christ)
Hoosier R100 (more)
BFG R1S (a lot)
Hoosier A6 (-4.0-4.5 depending on weather)
BFG R1
Hoosier SM6/R6 (-3.5, requires aero/skills?)
Hankook C71 (-2.5)
Toyo RR (-2.5)
Continental Grand-Am slick (225/45) (-1)
Maxxis RC-1 (0) (faster under 90F track temp)

Nitto NT-01 (0)

BFG Rivals (+1 or less) (easier to drive)
Hankook Ventus R-S3 (+1 or less)
Toyo R1R (195/50 pixie dust) (+1.5)
Bridgestone RE-11A ($Texas)
Dunlop Direzza ZII
Dunlop Direzza Star Specs Z1
Falken Azenis RT-615
Toyo RA1/R888 (noooooooooooooooooooo)
Slow


In the rain!
BFGoodrich g-Force KDW-R (-1) (depending on how much rain)

Hoosier H20 (0)

Continental Wet (+1?)
Toyo RA-1 (+3)
Toyo R888 (+4)
Everything else (+6)


These lists will be updated fairly regularly with input from you guys!

I'm still slow, but I'm slowly (ha) getting faster at my local tracks and I'm starting to consider R compounds for later in the year. All of my tire experiences have been with extreme performance summer tires, which have improved dramatically since I've been "in the scene". The gap has been closing on dedicated track-only compounds, but I know that manufacturers have come up with a few new products (RR, SM6, C71/51); however, there hasn't been that much change up compared to the street tires.

Here's just a list of tires off of the top of my head that I know. I've started the list in the OP with what I think is the "right" order, but I need some input from the Real Fast (So Cal) guys.

Street Tires:
BFG Rivals
Dunlop Direzza ZII
Hankook Ventus R-S3
Toyo R1R (only in 195/50R15 pixie dust)

R Comps
Nitto NT-01
Toyo R888
Hoosier A6
Hoosier R6
Hoosier SM6
Hoosier R7
Continental Grand-Am Slick

Conti slicks are slower than all the Hoosiers is my understanding. Is the faster tire on top or on bottom?

You might want to add a range of expected time difference from a "+/-0 second" tire (pick one, probably the NT01 is a good middle ground).

Aha, good catch.

I would add the sizes available, can it be street driven, how fast is it on a 2 minute track, price. Emilio and William have posted up many comparisons over the years.

Dry Grip - Wet Grip - Hot Grip - Cold Grip - Real-World Treadwear - Price

Do you have 3 pennies? I only have a nickel.

Ventus RS-3 - Dry (B+) - Wet (B) - Hot (A-) - Cold (F) - Real-world daily (15,000mi) - Real-world track (?? Hrs) - $120 ea?

Dunlop Star Specs - Dry (B-) Wet (C+) - Hot (B+) - Cold (C-) Real-world daily (25,000mi) - Real-world track (?? Hrs) - $110 ea?

I kind of want to avoid a bunch of "feature creep", but available sizes aren't too bad. I think using a base tire and people giving their experiences in their thread with a specific tire or a comparison between a couple of tires is good. Like in the suspension thread, Racelands are on the bottom and stuff like Ohlins are on the top, not

Racelands - $75, eBay, 200# front, 122# rear
Ohlins - $Texas, 32-way adjustable, you should be able to get away with 423# springs

I can't remember the magazine, but they tested all of the summer tires and they all were within 3/4 of a second of each other on an autocross course. So for the chart, they can all be 2 seconds off of an NT-01, but people could CTRL+F the thread and find that the R-S3 is crappy under braking and that the Rivals have chunking issues.

Any tire with a DOT stamp can be street driven. I've driven on A6s to the store and back. They just have a higher risk of punctures, and if its raining you have to be smart. From people who drive then on the street all the time, street driving doesnt seem to wear them significantly.

There are so many variables related to how well a given tire performs. Unless we're doing back-to-back comparison testing on the same track with similar weather, I'm not sure how meaningful listing lap times will be. I'm all for people giving their personal experiences though.

My only experience with a "real" tire is 205 Rivals which are so much better than the touring tires I had before it's not even funny.

A lot of people do go out and run tests during a session or two on different tires. They come back and post a one-liner in some newbie thread in the suspension section and its lost in time. I think sharing that and/or providing a link to these tid-bits of info is a good idea.


what I don't think is a good idea is trying to list every difference between these tires in a chart (available sizes (google please), hot/dry/wet/cold grip doesn't need to mentioned unless its a significant advantage/disadvantage). I think grouping similar laptime tires and having a quick note beside each one to point out differences between each tire is a good idea:

(I am making this data up)
You could probably do the chart a few ways (i provide an example below):
you can either include the approx. time difference if you want (R-Comps)
use a general one for the group and include difference as part of the note (extreme summers)
include the time difference in the note (Hoosiers).

Extreme summers (+2 seconds):
R1R ||| (lower performance +1 second, good feel/communication )
Rivals ||| (chunking)
RS-3 ||| (bad communication, braking feel sucks)

R-Comps:
R888 ||| +1 sec ||| (low tread life, doesn't like heat)
NT01 ||| 0 sec ||| (solid overall), overall baseline tire (ie all comparisons are based on this tire's laptime)

Hoosiers:
R6 ( -4 seconds, blah blah)
A6 ( -6 seconds, doesn't communicate well)


just my 2c. keep it simple and keep it relevant to track guys. If you are going to measure life, measure it in track hours and heat cycles.

Extreme summers (+2 seconds):
R1R ||| (stickies compound of the bunch but on a snow tire carcas, very low temp, known as the worst wife tire because it doesnt communicate)
Rivals ||| (Jesus's gift to motorsports, wear like iron, fell like heat cycled out slicks with low air pressure)
RS-3 ||| (Dont brake worth shit, need to be driving on the surface of the sun to get them hot enough, probably could be rated 400TW on the street)
ZII ||| (A more difficult to drive fast version of the Z1)

No love for the BFG R1 huh?

In my experience

BFG R1-S = Hoosier A6 > BFG R1 > Hoosier R6 > xxx > Continental Slick

The Conti tires suck compared to a regular R6 or BFG R1. The BFG R1-S is ~2-3s a lap faster than the Conti slick on a 2:00 road course.

Almost all of my experience is in FWD Hondas, or a little bit in an S2000.

At the NASA Nationals in 2011, I was ~1-1.5s faster on the standard BFG R1 then on Hoosier R6s, this was in a 260whp 3200lb Acura TL though, may not translate to Miatas.


Clearly, in regards to performance on Miatae, Emilio is probably the best resource for this.

Added the BFG R1 to the mix.

I have some ballpark figures that people are going to need to back up with anecdotal evidence (you see because the plural of anecdote is data).

Rules are meant to be broken. (except the SM rule.) Most 205s will be slightly faster on a 9" wheel, but the difference would be hard to measure. The 205/50 SM6/R6 is definitely faster on a 9" wheel and the difference is easy to measure.

Assumptions: 2 minute road course, 2-3 miles in length, the NT-01 will do a lap in 2 minutes

Assuming all tires in a 205/50 where applicable
Fast
Hoosier R75 (call the chiropractor)
Hoosier R80 (jesus christ)
Hoosier R100 (more)
BFG R1S (a lot)
Hoosier A6 (-4.0-4.5 depending on weather)
BFG R1
Hoosier SM6/R6 (-3.5)
Hankook C71 (-2.5)
Toyo RR (-2.5)
Continental Grand-Am slick (225/45) (-1)

Nitto NT-01 (0)

BFG Rivals (+0.5 or less)
Hankook Ventus R-S3 (+1 or less)
Toyo R1R (195/50) (+1.5)
Dunlop Direzza ZII
Dunlop Direzza Star Specs Z1
Falken Azenis RT-615
Slow

Blizzak DMV

Any studded tire will do a smoking first lap, and then the track is destroyed for everyone else including yourself.

All I need is one lap, ------.

Where does the Maxxis RC-1 fit it? Right at NT-01 or a little faster?

Here is some anectodal evidence that the Continental slick sucks, and why I mostly hate them...

I went to Road America twice this year, once for the Grand AM race in August, and once for the Runoffs in September. Both times I went in Civics, but the cars are quite different.

Grand AM 2013 Civic Si = Professionally setup, $8k dampers with custom valving, $$$$ motor built by Realtime, $$$$ diff with custom settings, shitty Conti tires. ~2700 lbs with driver. Way more HPs and TRQs then next car. An $80k pro race car.

STL 2006 Civic Si= poorly set up by me, off the shelf cheap H&R coilovers, bone stock engine making barely over 200whp (stupid STL camshaft rules), some home-made aero, off the shelf OS Giken diff, ~2700 lbs with driver, shitty 7" wide wheels BUT BFG R1-S tires. Let's say 40whp, 40wtq less than the Grand AM car. A $30k CLUB race car, frantically built by me.

My fastest lap time in the Grand AM car at Road America..... 2:33.89

My fastest lap time in the STL car at Road America ...... 2:33.89

Granted, my Grand AM car was setup poorly that weekend, and it did do a 32.9 in qualifying form, but still a similar (albeit) much, much cheaper car with way, way less whp, wtq did the same lap time. Biggest difference (other than power) is Conti tires versus BFG R1-S tires. AND, the Conti tires are more expensive (new vs. new).


All that said, the Conti tires aren't bad per se, just bad when compared to basically every other RACE tire. The conti tires seem like good "take off" track day tires if you can get them cheap enough (the 15" are getting old, and rare), other than that they are $hit.

I always love during the driver interviews when the CTSCC driver's praise the Conti tires and how well they did. It's a lie, every single time. The series pays you money if you mention the tire during your interview. They had to add that little $ benefit to get people to mention them...

DUHH you gays made me look for the chinese garbage as I was curious...

Tire Test: Nine Affordable Summer Tires Take On the Michelin PS2 Comparison Tests - Page 3 - Car and Driver

In that vain, do you think the 225/45 would work better on a 10" wheel?

Well the reality is 205 SM6s (8" tread width) are actually more like a 225 (~8" tread width), I don't think Sav's statement is nearly as applicable as the "205 on 8, 225 on 9" statement.

a 205 is usually closer to lower 7.x".

Hoosier R6 was about 3 seconds faster on a 2 mile course than the Star Specs. Same car, same day but in a HPDE format. In a race the R6 might be even faster.

I think the 225/45 R6 on a 10 would see a similar advantage to a normal 205/50 on a 9. Small gain, but small enough that it's difficult to measure.

The what tire is faster question depends on many variables. Back in 2004 we were running the 12hr at VIR in an SM and they had an open tire rule for that event. The RA1 is the tire we had run usually as it was the spec tire. We had also run this race the 2 previous years with the Data Aq running so we knew what to expect. We figured open tire rule, we'll get Goodyear GSCS tires as there "faster" and we'll kick butt. We go down and on the test day we try them out. First guy goes out and is 3 seconds off the pace. He comes in and says how the car is on rails thru the corners. I go out next and same results. I'm 3 seconds off the pace. And the car was on rails with those tires. We put on an old set of RA1's and I go back out and after 2 laps I'm back on pace. We go back and compare data between the years and it turns out were losing about 5mph on the straights as the tires stick to well. Think getting your hand off a piece of flypaper. Stickier tires use more HP to move. In a large HP car, probably not a real problem anywhere. On anything under 250HP you need to weigh how much time you gain and lose on the straights and corners based tire grip and the track your on. So whats faster usually does not equate to whats the stickiest tire. FYI
Chris

ugghhhh that was hard to read

I always wondered why I never heard of Conti slicks at all outside of the CTSCC. Are you going to be driving for them next year? I didn't make it to Indy this year but last year I enjoyed it, some right hand turns to keep me awake during the NASCAR weekend.

Yeah, of course things are going to be in relation to each other and it's a vague guide with understanding that it isn't The Law That Will Never Change or Be Challenged Never Ever. For comparison's sake, the Racelands can be faster than Xidas... with the stipulation that there's a hotshoe driving the car with the Racelands and a DE1 student driving the car with Xidas.

The Conti slicks are made by Hoosier. They are basically a slick version of the old R3 tire, with some modified rubber formulation (as far as I understand).

The Grand AM series used to run spec Hoosier tires. Then Continental paid a bunch of money to be the "Tire Supplier / Title Sponsor", and then they paid Hooiser to continue making the tires and start painting Continental on the side of them.

The reason you haven't heard of them outside of CTSCC is that they are only sold to CTSCC teams, and no one in their right mind would pay the exhorbitant price for sh*tty tire unless they are required to by rule.

AND, unfortunately NO, I am not slated to do any Grand AM races this year. I'm taking some time off as I recently had my second child and the time commitment to do Grand AM was eating up all my family time.

There is no comparison there. I was talking about, with all other things being equal, the difference in a car's performance with different tires. You were using human performance and suspension performance combined. Sorry, not a good example.
Chris

I wasn't clear what I was challenging in your example, the claim that stickier tires might not be faster because the Miata has a HP deficit. I agree with what you said; however, your experience in Spec Miata is fairly specific and you don't necessarily need 250hp to run some of these tires.

Sorry for the confusion.

Fixed

GRM just did an article on this, lots of math and stuff, but they basically agreed with you.

They also did a comparison on summer tires, I'll try to find it.

Can anyone comment where the maxxis rc1 falls into this? I'm thinking it's similar to the NT-01 maybe -.5?

lol just seconds after I posted I find this. https://www.miataturbo.net/wheels-ti...8/#post1087024

I would like to read that article if you have a name...

I have been running the 225 NT01 on 10"s all year. While I can't give you time comparisons vs the 9" wheel I can tell you they do feel great on a 10". The decision to run the 225 on a 10" was one of necessity.

Varies depending on the car and weather. At worst, they're equal. Cooler weather and/or heavier car, the RC-1's are faster. On our light Miatas, we need to have track temps under about 90* for the RC-1's to really out pace the NT01's. The RC-1's do last longer and steer better. That's saying a lot because the NT01's steer well for a hard compound HPDE level tire.

None of the Socal Miata HPDE crew but NT01's any longer.

The chart looks pretty accurate to me except I would put the Rivals and RS-3's on the same line. The Rivals are just easier to drive and last longer. Setup can be off a bit and still be fast with Rivals. RS-3's require a closer to optimum setup for the car to feel good. This is largely because you can bulldog a poorly setup car on Rivals into rotating without scrubbing too much speed. Exact same input/entry speed with RS-3's on the same car and you're farming.

Where does the RA1 fit into all of this?

Great info in here for a track noob like myself...


Any more info on heat cycling would be good as well- specifically how long they last or when they start to fall off would be helpful to know. Maybe included in the first post alongside the time differential?

Slower than Rivals. If you're still running RA1s and you aren't required to by your ruleset or budget, you need to evaluate your life choices :dealwithit:

Thanks for the info Emilio!

The best way to figure out when tires start to fall off is to keep a logbook with ambient+track temperatures and laptimes. If you're just starting out, you can do a full year of track (4+ events) and autocross (8-10 events) on a set of summer tires and they'll still have a bit of stick to them, the tread might not though.

I budget every year for a set of summer tires because it's cheap fun. 15" wheels are awesome. (go look up a set of R-S3s/Rivals in 17")

That's interesting to me I'm almost 3 seconds a lap faster on used SM RA1s vs fresh rivals. Same 205 size on a 15x8. This is around Portland International. I'm trying sm6 takeoffs for this year on a 15x8 again and see where that brings me.
As for required/budget I get free takeoffs all the time so I guess they fit my budget.

Chalk it up to the weather, confidence, or any number of things. RA1s are slower than NT-01s. Rivals are essentially the same speed as NT-01s. Therefore, RA1s are slower than Rivals. They definitely aren't 3 seconds a lap faster.

Rivals are the same speed as NT01s? I hate to question that, but I haven't seen it. I guess I also haven't seen the RR be much faster, if at all, than an NT01. I really wanted it to be. I don't have nearly the time on them that some of you do, though. Did you have to set the car up significantly differently to achieve that?

<shrug>

robert

Thanks- I've been doing that... logging temperature, lap times, tire pressure, feel etc. I think I'm at the point of falling off though, I've got 5 HDPE's (25- 20 min sessions) on my RS3's and they seem to be slowing down a little... That about right?

They're going to start falling off, but it'll still be decently quick. I have 30 25-minute sessions and probably 40 50+ second autocross runs on my current set of R-S3s. I didn't flip them, so the tread isn't looking too confident in the rain, but they still stick when warmed up (including a 35F day at VIR-F).

I'll use them on the street until I order Rivals for this upcoming year (planning 6+ DEs and autox).

is this a comparison of 205 NT01 vs. 205 RC1 or 225 NT01 vs 205 RC1s? Or did you get to test the 225 RC1s?

Car setup changes when moving between tires are a given. At minimum, pressure and small camber tweaks based on pyrometer data.

Rivals produce the same peak lateral Gs as the NT-01, same as the RS-3. They beat the RS-3 on braking and accel grip. Fresh NT-01 to fresh Rival, we're talking a couple of tenths in either direction. A little wind or a 10deg change in track temp and the difference is 0, so it's a hard A-B test to do.

RRs are much faster than NT-01s. They also get set up way differently - massively different tire pressure, different camber settings. If you offered me 225 NT-01s or 205 RRs for a race, I'd take the RRs every time.

?

If I compare two anythings (header, lubricants, cam, tire, wing, pizza) on a public forum without any disclaimers, you can assume controlled or semi-controlled conditions with comparable variants. Too many people around the world use the results I publish to make "informed" decisions. To publish anything else without disclaimers would be really irresponsible and it's just not my style.

So no, this isn't 225/45 NT01's on 9's on someone else car in winter against my car on 205 RC-1's on 8's in summer. Same everything except the tire model. I'm also including Maxxis own internal tire testing data that was shared with me.

Sure, that's a given. I guess I should have asked "are there any 'massive' changes needed"? Like, to make the RR work, did you have to add another 1.5* of camber or was it pretty close to the NT-01 setup? Obviously, "your results may vary", but I'm interested in your experience, since we're talking about it.

I've run them back to back with only air pressure changes and my data shows nearly identical grip. Maybe I'm just just running the "NT-01 programming" and not driving the hard enough, that's certainly a possibility. It's been six months since I've been on track and don't have my tire temp notes with me or I'd post that data, but I don't recall it being massively out off where I'd want it.

I am planning to do more testing in a few weeks, I guess I should just wait until then to ask more questions. Thanks for the information,

robert

What about on the moon? :P

This is all fantastic data, guys. I'm particularly excited about the Toyo RR coming out in 225/45R15. It's pretty amazing that the tire options have opened up dramatically in the past few years.

thanks for clarifying. Don't be a dick.

You're welcome. Glad the information we provide for free is of some use :party:

What about rain tires?

Hoosier H20 2:00
Toyo RA-1 +:03
Toyo R888 +:04
Everything else + :06

Any reliable news on 245/40-15 RS-3 or Rival? I need TW140, max 23" for open/street autox.

While we're discussing the merits of the Rivals, what do you think the NT-01/RC-1 offers over the Rival given that they have similar lateral grip?

So for HPDE (and non-serious TT) folks, is there any compelling reason to pick the NT-01 over the Rival?

I'm currently on R888s since they were so cheap.

Better braking and acceleration grip.

Excellent question. Not being a tire engineer I can only guess, but I suspect the compounds used in the Rival and RC-1 are not too far apart in performance properties. The big difference being tread pattern (or lack thereof). In practice, the RC-1, as you would expect, behaves better when it's at it's grip and temp thresholds. Thick tread is not conducive to good steering response, thermal rejection or ultimate grip.

The RC-1 is a purpose built HPDE tire, probably the best on the US market today. The Rival is a dual duty tire, also probably the best on the US market today in it's category. Decide which fits your usage.