Trackday Pics Give Me Suspension Questions (no56k)
 

I had a great HPDE trackday at Sebring on the 3.7 mile course. The car felt balanced and relatively neutral-to-slightly-understeery at the limit in the big sweepers just as Shaikh's calculator predicted with a FRC at ~56.5%.

Then I see the pictures and OMG. My car looks nothing close to balanced in the pics. The front is showing lots more sway than I felt when driving and the rear is very squatted compared to the front in many of the pics. I must be really close to the bumpstops in the rear. And the front end points too much towards the sky sometimes. If I had grippier or wider tires I'd be on the bumpstops constantly or rubbing wheelwells badly.

Some pics:
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1318603262

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1318603262

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1318603262
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1318603262
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1318603262
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1318603262
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1318603262
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1318603262
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1318603262
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1318603262
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1318603262
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1318603262
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1318603262
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1318603262
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1318603262
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1318603262
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1318603262
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1318603262
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1318603262



The low-budget setup is: NB Sport Bilsteins, NB tophats, stock NB Sport front springs (168lb), RB NA6 rear springs (106lb), cut down stock rear bumpstops, FM front sway 1" full stiff, FM rear sway 5/8" full soft, 949 front endlinks, 195/14 RS2s. I have also added about 1" extra preload to the springs by mounting the shock rod higher in the tophat using non-factory mounting hardware. ~56.5 FRC

The obvious answer is "Get stronger springs, dummy," but adjustable coilovers perches and springs aren't in the budget right now (unless someone has some cheap used stuff laying around) and they would also likely require a shock revalve ($$$), unless the springs had relatively mild rates, wouldn't they? I believe Hustler said the HD Bilsteins rode like crap with heavier springs that he tried once.

I always see the car without me in it and the rear height looks good and even with the front. Add 370lbs total of me and instructor plus a full tank of fuel and we're saggin'. Is this a big problem or just shut up and enjoy my trackday like a good noob? As a positive it looks like I have great front droop which is really good on rougher tracks like Sebring. Soft and compliant with good droop is what the baller drivers at Sebring tend to use from what they tell me.

Extra suspension parts I'm not currently using that may be employed: NB sport rear springs (130lbs) that make it ride high like a dually pickup in back, used Koni Yellow adjustables, stock rear swaybar, RB NA6 front springs (157lbs), NA8 stock front and rear springs (154lbs and 94lbs), etc.


Should I add the 130lb springs to the rear, remove FM rear sway and add stock the rear sway for ~FRC 62.5 perhaps? Somebody have some light duty springs and old adjusters that they have grown out of or something they recommend?


Comments? Wisdom? Laughter? Words of guidance fueled by experience?


Feel free to move this thread if I'm not "track enough" for this section. Thanks in advance.

If you can afford to do track days, you can afford some serviceable used springs with respectable rates. Ebay and sccaforums are good sources. I totaled about $60 shipped for all 4 springs on my car, used Eibachs and QA1s. These are 2.5" springs for coilovers. I got the Koni sleeves which were somewhere between $150-200 IIRC for the set of 4.

Not sure what rates the NB Bilsteins can handle, but if you can use those Koni yellows they're good up to about 500 lb/in. I have 450/300 F/R on mine and no problems. The ride quality is not exactly plush, but not too horrible on the street. On the track you're going to need at least FM-ish spring rates (330/220 or whatever they are) to keep from wallowing around like a pig.

I ran both FM bars and it was a little oversteery so I ended up going back to a stock rear bar. Handling balance is great, just the ride quality isn't awesome on rough surfaces with the Konis. But you're going to be making sacrifices until you come up with A$T money.

What he said. Most guys running track days are running 3-5 times stiffer springs than stock. Spec Miatas run 700lb fronts! Considering you were running stock springs that doesn't look so bad. Look for a deal and at least double those spring rates, more in the front. Big front bar and stock rear is pretty popular. Lose the FM rear bar.

While Koni Yellow with high-rate springs are good for track/autocross they are just miserable on the street :2cents:

Don't know about Bilsteins, but I would get some used shocks that are valved more appropriately.

I think you are being over critical. Car looks pretty good considering the parts you have. Of coarse I am not one to critique considering my track experience.

The question I would ask myself is what would get you through the learning curve of track driving faster without developing bad habits. What do the instructors have to say about that?

Sounds like the car is a daily driver that might spend a couple of hours on track a few times a year, so that's how I'd treat it.

Set it up to how you like it on the street and track it that way.

None of the pictures or things you mentioned are problems. Stock-like springs and shocks are perfectly fine, they just let the car roll more than stiffer setups would allow, but roll isn't necessarily a bad thing. What you experienced is pretty much what you should expect on a mostly-stock Miata. As a new track driver, you should be focused on having fun, driving the car, learning the line, and playing well with others. As long as the car is in good mechanical condition and the suspension is reasonably set up, you are good to go.

Spend your cash on seat-time until you are faster than the car.

*

Yeah, I know it takes pay to play. I really can't afford to go to the track right now but also haven't been able to afford it for several years and am tired of not affording it. I told myself I was going to stop denying my wants and do it for me because (Stewart Smalley says) I'm worth it.

I may have to try the Konis out. I'm worried about putting too light a spring on there for them and having them jack down over bumps. Also no coilovers yet so I can't even test them out.

I keep thinking about these sacrifices.

So I have heard. That is part of what concerns me.

I'd love to pick out some awesome spring and coilover combo and have Shaikh rebuild my Bilsteins to match but $$$.

Well, it isn't a daily driver but it's a weekend driver. But I get your point. Unless I'm going full race compromises lay everywhere in between. Maybe my real questions are "Do I have a problem?" and "What's the cheap road from here to make incremental progress?"

And that is the answer to the question, "Do I have a problem?" You are saying mostly no. And I agree it felt pretty good. Was it fast? Doubtful. But I was out there and I got my jollies all over 17 different turns so mission accomplished. I guess I want to set it up better and make improvements to go faster but on the cheap. I have some 15x7s that need some sticky 205/50/15s on them but looking at the pics that will never happen with these springs. I would be chewing them up all over the fenderwells. Stickier tires would make the forces greater and everything would be compounded.

I like this advice. It makes sense to me in many ways.

I was told by a few friends that I needed to hurry up and get the turbo on there now and I said "hell no!" Going faster would only complicate things and make me outdrive my tires, suspension, and brakes. Dangerous stuff.

Like I've never heard that before, lol.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1318618581 Measure it for me? You can probably look at my car and determine how much precision went into its setup. I guess I should just chill and tinker with it a bit. Maybe I'll stumble up on a deal or two also.

On a different note, my SA2010 full face helmet that had been backordered for 5 weeks showed up last night, woohoo!

Curious what you were expecting with stock springs.

Edit: For reference, I've been daily driving (not weekend driving) SM-valved Bilsteins with 550/325lb springs. It isn't buttery soft, but it is far from the end of the world. I think anything softer than those would be even comfier.

Touche'
Why awesomeness, of course! It is a Miata after all. I guess I'm surprised at how much flatter it felt than it looks now seeing the pics. I'll take that as an indication of disparity between my perception and my reality. This phenomenon repeats itself in other aspects of my life as well.

As it makes the inevitable spiral down to mostly track car lack of money becomes a greater hindrance to me than worry about comfort.

Feel you there. Why I'm "daily driving" instead of "rolling bitches at VIR" currently :cry:

Just think how much more potential there is in that little car, and I know you will eventually reach futher into that potential. In due time.

I've said it many times before, but my 700/400 spring rates on ASTs are more comfortable than my daily on stock springs. If I had one car to track and daily, I might consider 500/300 spring rates, but I'd most likely go with 700/400 for a daily driven vehicle. Its firm and the only time I feel discomfort in the track car is on rhythmic bumps. Driving down the highway is smoother and speedbumps are sucked-up much easier than on the stock springs.

XIDAs are the way to go even more so for a daily driver, its the best of both worlds.

Send your shit to the weekend racer he'll take care of ya. :D

you think thats bad?

agx, ebay coilovers, stock sways. circa 2007

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1318642442

also, those pics don't change the fact that the car felt balanced. usually refers to the difference between frt. and rear end traction. the right balance of which makes the car easier to control and inspires confidence.

sorry Steve, I had trouble reading your post with that avatar of yours.... good lord.

In my NA, I bought it with RB springs and Koni yellows, and the car had some serious roll, felt like crap. Just changing to the FM springs only and adding the FM bumpstops, it feels like a completely different car. I'm on a budget as well and didnt feel like dropping a lot on some coilovers, but I love my Koni/FM springs setup. Stock swaybar btw... i might add a larger front bar sometime soon.

Wow. Yours looks like it is experiencing much more travel in the front than mine but a little less in the back. I guess you didn't have an instructor helping to weigh down the rear. You were probably running stickier tires than my RS2s so you were pushing it harder. What were the spring rates on the car in the picture?

The FM swaybar made a huge difference for me. Now I just need stronger springs and the shocks to help control it. I may be trying the Konis out here soon. I hope they aren't blown or anything. I may have to revalve my Bilsteins one day if they are.

If you're going for the Konis I would highly suggest the Ground Control kit since it's only $400 and you can choose whatever spring rates you want. I'm currently running 550/350 and it's perfect for daily + tracking. Very comfortable and not harsh. It is 'firm', don't get me wrong but it's nothing to complain about.

Like hustler said, you can run higher spring rates are shocks of better quality and it will be as comfy if not more comfy than stock suspension. I understand your budget concerns though but this may be something to look forward to later down the road. I'm running Moton Club Sports on my S2000 with 850/700 spring rates and it's great for daily driving aside from the rhythmic swells on the highway like hustler mentioned.

If have to agree. It's not what the car looks like but what it feels like on the track. I'm running 700/450 springs and I still get some roll. But the car feels perfect so I don't worry.

Nothing useful to contribute here, but you look very Sterling Moss-like in that brain bucket. I like.

:love:

Unless you're comparing the same corner of the same track on (really) the same day, a comparison picture isn't going to tell you anything. Different tires, different elevation, different entry/corner speeds, about a million possible different variables, all of which will affect what the car looks like while leaned over.

actually that was on legally bald rs-2's. drove to and from the track. but again this was 2007. back then my car was at 2350lbs. not sure what the ebay springs were rated at. later i switched to Qa1 350/250 springs and an rb frt. sway. much, much better than that picture. i was pushing as hard as i could to not impede that spec miata driver. if you look at the sm behind me, you can see the difference 700/400 springs, and the big eibach sways make.

I didn't get any feedback on the setup from my instructor. It was neutral enough that it wasn't the prime concern. He was concentrating on what I was doing with the car and where I needed to be on the track, which is also what I was concentrating on. If the car was actually a problem on the track from a driving standpoint I would have more to worry about. I guess I should make my small adjustments as I can afford to and just concentrate on learning the tracks and learning the braking and turn in points. I guess I've got plenty to worry about with that until I get more comfortable with it.

Haha! I had ordered a SA2010 full face helmet several weeks beforehand that had not yet come in. It was actually hot enough out that I was glad I had the open faced one. The Nomex hood kinda looks funny with it (oldschool) but keeps me from sweating up the helmet lining and making it funky. Plus it protects my handsome mug from raging flames, lol.


Yeah, the most obvious thing was the difference between the roll in the two cars in your pic.




Here's my comparison pic. We aren't fully into the corner yet so we I'm really not swaying much at this point. I passed this Z06 in the previous straightaway because he just couldn't hang with my acceleration, yeah right.

My instructor was balancing his checkbook in this picture because it was so thrilling.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1318769009

Yeah, ok, I'm waiting for the passing zone to let him by...



The planning has begun and I have seen the cheap ebay spring and coilover kits on ebay but there is absolutely no info on rates, spring lengths, or diameters to know which ones might help a brother out. Do I want the honduh EG, EK, DSM2, integra, accord, eclipse or what? 2" or 4" vertical adjusters? I've searched a bit but here but all too often people just say "ebay coilovers" but I know there have to be differences because they are being advertised for different cars. Nondescript chinese crap. AAArgh. Buying brand name springs looks easier. They actually have dimensions and rates.

I used ebay collars amd qa1 springs for a few track days before I ponied up for nice sleeves. Ebay ones were fine all the new sleeves did was make my lowest ride height point lower. Qa1 springs are where it's at for budget racers.

^^^ That would be an okay budget plan. At least get springs with known rates from a reputable manufacturer even if you cheap out on the sleeves. There is nothing functionally wrong with used springs (unless they are rusted to shit maybe) and they can often be had cheaper than new QA1s, which are alredy budget-friendly. If you start with springs of unknown rates then it will be difficult to know what direction you need to go with future adjustments to get the balance where you like it. Yeah, you can stand on them and measure the delta to get a rough idea of the rate, but also consider that if they are a name brand with known rate you will one day be able to sell them to somebody else. Nobody wants to buy your used unknown ebay springs, so they will end up wasting space in your garage, or in a landfill.

As far as ebay sleeves go, as a rule, I avoid chinese pot metal suspension parts. But lots of people use them and I haven't seen reports of them failing.

GC sells quality parts, but $400 is more than you really have to spend to get quality parts. If you break it down, you're paying the same for the sleeves as if you bought stuff Koni (who are actually helpful over the phone, unlike others) and you're paying $60 for each of 4 new Eibach springs which isn't saving you money either.

right, i have no idea what the ebay springs are. that's why i bought the Qa1 springs i mentioned in my post. i do know my buddy had msm bilsteins (silver ones) and bought the silver sleeve/blue spring ebay coilovers because someone had measured them at 450/325 or something like that. rode 100x better tham oem and was fast at the track.

Sixshooter,


I have Koni Yellows with 525/335 springs, damping set ~half turn off full stiff. Ride height is slightly lower than stock.

It rides much better than stock on the street. I was surprised, but the point I am trying to make is if you go with yellows, don't worry about a harsh street ride.

Y'know, I have a set of GC sleeves in the basement. I THINK they're for Honda Bilsteins, but if you get me a shock diameter measurement I'll see if they match up. They're in great shape and I'd let 'em go cheap.

That would be great! I was sitting here contemplating buying a set of ebay sleeves and springs just to have to chuck out the springs and shop for proper rate springs.

According to wisdom posted on the interwebz, "outside of the NB Bilstein tube is a bit over 50mm or 1.97 inches." If I am able to collect the proper parts I'll send my Billies out for a revalve eventually and get serious about this. After denying myself the ability to spend a few bucks on the car for so long I'm finding it hard to stop now, especially after getting a taste of the track. I gotta get another fix. I'm going to be a full-blown trackhead.

Everytime I drive in a miata I think is harsh as shit, I will ask the owner, "are you on konis?" I'm almost always right. Doesn't matter if it's 500/300 or 375/250 or 318/222 or oem, konis are harsh and I notice it right away. I detest Konis.

I might have to try out the Yellows if I get some real springs. I'm afraid of them jacking down with the stockers I have now. I have heard so many wonderful things about fatcat's custom revalving of Bilsteins that I think I'd have trouble giving up on that idea unless the Konis felt awesome when I tried them. I dunno, it is a lot to contemplate.

Edit: Brain's post echoes some of the sentiment I've heard before. I wonder if any of that is a result of how the owner has them adjusted or if they are always somewhat harsh?

Hmm. Mine are apparently 52mm ID. Not sure if that'd work or not, or if you could find/fab an inner sleeve. Might be too big for the spring clip even if you could do a sleeve.

awesome pics, looks like you guys had alot of fun

Almost all my Miata suspension experience is with the yellows, being that they were on my car when I bought it. Most of my time in other Miatas has been focused on the boostz and I wasn't critically evaluating suspension or even paying much attention to it. That said, the car was on stock springs when I got it, and I didn't think it was harsh at all. After I put on wheels & tires that are heavier than stock and installed 450/300 springs is when I noticed the harshness. When I installed those parts was also around the time when VDOT started tearing the shit out of all the roads I drive on for HOV expansion projects and other construction. When I get out of town and drive on roads that haven't been strategically cratered, little bumps and pavement seams just don't bother me that much. The ride is controlled, and though it isn't glass smooth, I don't find it bothersome especially since the Miata is not an obligate daily driver for me.

The Koni adjuster changes rebound damping. The car will feel tighter through corners if you crank up the damping, but increasing the damping as a band-aid compensation for low spring rates really exacerbates the jacking down phenomenon when you encounter bumps. I'd guess that anyone who is more than 1/2 turn up from full soft on stock-ish spring rates probably has them set way too stiff. You have about two turns of adjustment to work with. On 450/300 I'm about 1/2 to 5/8 turn down from full stiff in the front, and about 1 turn down for the rears, give or take (it's been a while since I adjusted them). One good way to set them is to find some speed "humps," the smoother kind used to control residential neighborhood traffic that you can take at 25-30 mph. Start at full soft and turn up the damping 1/4 turn at a time until you have mitigated the "hobby horse" effect induced by the hump. That will be a good point to leave it for street driving on smooth roads, or you can back off ~1/4 turn if you live in a bumpy area. If at some point you do an event on a smooth track you can play with cranking up the damping and see how you like it.

I'm willing to try it. Nothing to lose but whatever you are asking for them. What are you looking to get? PM me. Thanks.

Really? I don't have much to compare to, but my koni setup is noticeably better ride wise than my stock shocks/springs with 100k miles on them (I assume they were never replaced). And for the price I paid, I am 110% glad with em.

Maybe my old shit was so blown I was just straight up riding the bumpstops. Or you just have a really sensitive ass :giggle:

Also, keep in mind I am just slightly under stock ride height, not really low.

Concrete blocks would have been better than my old stockers, so I understand. It was slam into the bumpstop then bounce off of it.

I'm working on getting the used coilovers from Stinkycheesemonkey. Does anyone have any old springs that might be useful to me? Anything between 200 and about 550lbs would interest me. Cheap and ugly makes me smile. Cheap and pretty is sheer joy!

Thanks guys.

I have a pair of 8" 7K springs (2.5ID), and 6" 6K springs (2.75ID).

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1319137306

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1319137306

I am interested, but confused. Are you offering the black one (8 inch, 2.5 diameter) and the silver QA1 or the black one and some other non-pictured spring?

The part # on the QA1 says it is a 2.5" x 7" x 400lb (which is 7k).

A 6k spring is 336lbs. Is 6 inches a little short on that for the amount of travel that would be expected? I think I read something about that once. I'm obviously a rookie so I need some explanin' so I don't screw up.

i didnt offer the silver ones. obviously i was offering the black ones since I showed a second picture of them with the measurements :)

the 6K ones are the stock rear ones of the teins, the 7K are Stance springs.

That's what I thought you meant but I've learned the hard way around here to ask the obvious. :)

PM me prices, please sir.

make me an offer i can refuse. both sets are collect dust.

Dude, you are way over thinking this stuff. Have you read the ebay coilover thread on miata.net. Quit talking about jacking down, revalves, etc. Your a rookie and shouldn't be concerned about such things. Order some ebay coilovers for a "miata" and profit. The rates are generally 450/350 and we can even that out with the sway selection. It is the super budget way to rock out at the track. I've ran ebay collars and springs in different combinations on 4-5 miata's over the last 4 years. Here is what I want you to do...

Sign up at www.mazdamotorsports.com

order nb top hats for your car through mazda

order stock honda bump stops 51722-SR0-004 ? I think thats the part number, search noob

order miata coilovers off ebay, read miata.net ebay coilover thread http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread...=ebay+coilover

order a big front bar like the rb hollow, or the spec miata front bar from eibach

order one set of adjustable endlinks from where ever is cheapest

buy some used ra1's, nt01s, bfg r1, conti slicks, etc from ebay, nasa forums, scca forums, etc


This entire setup will cost about $400 including mount balance/track alignment with big camber and drop big time off your laps. Please don't be a budget racer and a parts snob, you will never get fast. Throw the budget setup on there and be the budget racer that you are. There is nothing to guess about, its been done 1000 times. Not trying to be a dick, but someone had to slap you.

jacking down only happens on shocks with tons of rebound and soft springs...

Question about the Honda bumpstops: I bought a set of the KYB bumpstops because I could not find the Honda part number searching here or on M.net. Any problem using those vs. the Honda jobs? I haven't actually bothered to put them on yet, so I could return them or resell them if Honda does it better.

you are the fail at search: http://www.hondapartsnow.com/genuine...2-SR0-003.html


BTW. I was back in a miata with Koni Sports and GC 550/300. It wasnt THAT bad; I'm just a baby. But it was noticable over my tiens.

Just make sure those are the foam stops that guys are running. I had that part number from the site Brain posted saved in my favorites but that research was months ago and I've forgot all the details.

Fuck me sideways, how did I not find that before? I did find it on M.net, but the part number is just slightly different: 51722-SR0-003, which matches what Brain linked.

Gonna get the cheese. :bowrofl:

Parts snob? Moi? No way! Everything I have is secondhand crap but my 949 endlinks.

I don't go on miata.net because it makes my head hurt but I will study this over there now. I studied what people have in their build threads here but people are notoriously vague about some items that "everybody knows about."

I have NB tophats, FM swaybar, 949 endlinks, stinkycheez is sending me some coilover adjusters, and I'm getting the 400lb springs from Brain. I have newish NB Bilsteins and some old Koni yellows to play with. I never heard anything about the honda bumpstops and I try to read everything I can over here. That must be a m.net nugget also. I do intend to use used track tires because I use used street tires already. More advice is welcome because that is the obvious reason I made this thread. So keep it coming. And thank you.

Like if I used Koni Yellows with my stock springs?

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1319489896

Buttplug? Do not want.

(Posting from my phone.)

That curve was designed for stock springs to keep on the bumps and jack up the spring rates during tight corners.

Listen to jake's words of wisdom. I drove his POS "fancy pants" at Hallett last year. That car was a giant turd, but the suspension was the best part of the car. It was extremely balanced and didn't have issues with traction over the rough bumps on the track. It was perfectly controllable when the 10 minutes storm soaked the track and I was sliding around on race tires.

I don't think Steve needs to get on any slicks quiet yet (completely speculating from his posting). While I am not a big buyer of the "slicks don't help you learn, they only cover up mistakes and allow you to go faster" philosophy that Instructors tend to teach, I still think you shouldn't be on slicks until you are comfortable with the limits on street tires, especially on high speed corners.

I am a little late to the party Steve, but summit has those allstar performance sleeves for sale and the QA1 springs on there are cheap as shit. I just got my springs+sleeves for $313.

If you are on R-package bilsteins, stay on them and get some springs ~400 or less. Seems you already got the sways under control so you should be ready to go! Just gotta get some wider wheels and 205s/225s (whatever you like, personally I am sticking with 205s for now after finding the traction to be plenty).

With that said, your body roll pictures aren't too shabby, you can see how much my car pitches and rolls in turns/under braking in my videos and the pictures on MFz. I had to stop braking as hard on turn 11 and 1 (CMP) because my rear would unweight so much that it would get squirrelly and almost kicked around on me a few times!

My thanks to everyone who contributed here. I ended up with ground control sleeves on NB hard Bilsteins with Brain's 448lb 8" front springs and 275lb rear. I am using the FM 1" front sway set full stiff and the FM 5/8" rear sway set full soft.

After some fidgeting and settling I got a ride height I can live with. It is slightly higher than what is stylish but will allow ample travel under load if I'm onto the curbing. To go any lower I would need a 7" front spring because I am adjusted all the way down to the clips that hold the adjusters up. When I mount the 15" wheels it will fill the fenders better and I need to leave room for them to move as well.

The NB hard Bilsteins have no trouble with these springs. I was very surprised how well they worked and believe I could go to quite a bit firmer spring rates with them without issue. It really does ride better than stock to me. It has a comfortable firmness and I am ready for the next trackday to see how it does.

Glad to hear the sleeves worked out!