z31maniac

I know the NC2 Manuals get the forged crank. Since it's based off the heavier RX-8 I'm going to guess there isn't nearly the issue with hubs, larger RX-8 brakes bolt on for a cheap upgrade (if necessary at stock HP levels).

I'm thinking find a cheap NC1 w/ 6 spd, rollbar/seats/harnesses, make sure all the maintenance is up to date, fresh fluids, flush brakes and proper pads, sticky tires, go?

What I'm missing/overlooking?

codrus

The weakness, IMHO, is that it's difficult to get a proper rollbar in the car that fits under the soft top. That's fine if you're building a dedicated track car, but not great for a dual-pupose car.

--Ian

z31maniac

Blackbird claims his RZ bar is SCCA and NASA legal and retains softop operation.

Moti has a great rep, I'm sure he's done the research/work to ensure he's correct.

doward

Even Moti will tell you the RZ is compromised. There’s a reason he does GT3 bars.

Shocks and rollover over protection are the big two.

2.5 swaps are intriguing.

Maybe Jpreston will chime in. He has one prepped for track double duty. I got to drive his NC earlier this year.

codrus

Legal or not (I have no idea what the regs are, so I'm not addressing that), you can tell from pictures that the RZ bar is narrower, shorter, and has less rear support than the bars people usually put in NA/NBs. That means it's providing less protected spacer for the occupants, which is a weakness. It doesn't really matter how good the roll bar designer is, if it's going to fit under the soft top then that imposes some compromises in what's possible.

--Ian

z31maniac

Ok duly noted. The GT3 bar is the no brainer if I decide to get a hardtop.

Can we focus on the other potential reliability issues?

hornetball

iTrader: (4)

Local race shop told me that NCs have rear hub cracking issues (they supported several MX-5 Cup Cars back when the NC was the formula). Front hubs are overbuilt and durable.

Of course, I've cracked my NA rear hubs more times than I'd like to remember. It's just one of those things to periodically inspect and put on a timeout schedule.

I see a lot of people having a lot of fun with NCs out at the track. I say have at it!

z31maniac

Good to know! I was originally planning on something like the new Mustang GT PP2 or SS 1LE, even though I only use my car 150-200 miles per month for work/etc.

Still a bit much for dual-duty car.

jpreston

iTrader: (4)

-The NC1 6 speeds have a number of issues. I don't remember the details, but I know problems exist, and they were fixed for the NC2. Jason Saini posted on one of the forums (rx8club?) back around 2006-2008 with all of the fixes for the NC1 6 speed. All I know for sure is that I've driven one NC1 6sp car and it had the worst shifter feel of any manual trans car I've ever driven. My NC2 6speed feels as good as a low mile NB 5speed. Saini said that the NC 5 speed wouldn't last a race on the pro cars (again, NC1 stuff back in 2006-2008) but I haven't read any issues on m.net and I think I remember reading Goodwin post about running the 5sp on one of his boosted track cars.

-Stock NC front hubs aren't a common weak point that I know of, but the RX8 front hubs are a direct bolt on and much beefier. No reason not to upgrade.

-Stock rear hubs/bearings are known to fail if tracked hard. There are very few reports of rear hub failures on m.net, but all of the pro teams cite rear hubs/bearings as a major weak point. With the right combination of parts, RX8 rear knuckles can bolt on and, as far as I know, totally fix the problem. You have to do some weird mixing and matching... I think RX8 outer axle cups combined with NC axle shaft and inner cup? I've never found a direct answer online.

-RX8 brakes and sway bars are a direct fit.

-From all of the builds I've followed online, I think a full race prep NC can get within 100lb of an equal prep NB. In full street form they're pretty porky though. My 2009 with hardtop, softtop, hard dog roll bar, and me + a passenger was 2998lb across the NASA scales at mid-o. That worked out to about 2560lb without driver/passenger.

-My car has been super reliable in the time I've owned it and I haven't had to do any maintenance, but the pro teams that I've talked to said that it's currently very hard to get quality replacement parts. Multiple people told me something along the lines of "mazda has stopped making parts for these cars, and all of the replacement/reman stuff from the auto parts stores is complete junk." I fail to see how this could be any worse than the NA/NB parts availability, but... that's what I was told.

-ECU tuning options are kinda disappointing for someone coming from NA/NB. The stock ECU can be reflashed and is highly tune-able, but the DIY tuning community is extremely small for the NC. There's either a very steep learning curve for tuning it yourself, or you have to do email tunes with one of the big 3 Ecutek NC tuners. There are currently zero plug and play standalone options.

-The 2.5 swap is just as cheap and easy as a 1.6 to 1.8 swap on an NA. 185whp is easy, but 200 is possible with the right combination of parts. Would be super fun.

I bought my NC2 back in May when my NB got crashed and totalled in an enduro at Road America. I was trying to decide if I wanted to switch to an NC or build another NB, and this track-ready 2009 popped up for sale with hardtop, roll bar, Bilstein PSS10, and nice wheels. As far as dual duty street/track cars go, this is by far the best miata I've owned. It's way more comfortable on the street than an NB, and the 2.0 MZR has a really meaty mid-range that makes the car feel a lot faster than it is. At mid-ohio and AMP, lap times were pretty much on par with what I'd expect from an equally prepped NB. I've had a lot of fun with it this summer, but all of my racing buddies still have NAs and NBs, and I think an NB is still a better fit for the classes I want to race in, so I'm getting ready to sell the NC and build another NB this winter. Kinda hate to see the NC go, but I won't have any need for it once the new NB is finished.

z31maniac

Thanks for all the info!

I'm also curious what parts are getting hard to find. My previous track rat was an NA, and I also had an NC as a straight daily driver so it was completely stock except for the FM cat back and eventually an OTS tune with an OFT.

That's why inquired about the NC, I really don't want to go down the the NA/NB route again.....even though the formula is there.

And I believe the ND suffers the same issues regarding the roll bar as the NC.

jpreston

iTrader: (4)

I had the same thoughts. I've had 6 or 8 NAs and NBs now and just wanted to try something new. I wish I could convince myself to go full racecar on an NC because a caged 2.5 swap car with 200whp and 2300lb would be super fun. Like a poor-man's S2000 but lighter and with actual torque. The NC chassis definitely doesn't deserve the bad reputation that it's been given.

Chilicharger665

iTrader: (2)

I drove an NC Cup Car at COTA and I had tons of fun. I have had two street NC's and I always enjoyed them more than my 3 NB's. I also have some freshly rebuilt 2-way adjustable NC coilovers sitting in my garage that you could put on and immediately have a great suspension! The stock suspension is definitely the weak point, if that is even a consideration.

NC's can fit massive amounts of rubber, the 2.5 swaps are getting cheap and the horsepower keeps creeping up. A cheap NC would be my pick for a track car these days for sure.

You have that nice garage now, so get Moti's GT3 bar and the Treasure Coast hardtop. They can be made acceptable on the NVH and fit. Definitely not OEM good though, lol.

Chilicharger665

iTrader: (2)

The NC RZ bar is actually wider and a lot taller than the ND RZ. It will be much easier to fit under the NC RZ. Also much easier to mount seats, etc. NC's will start getting more and more popular in the years to come, especially with all the 2.5 engine development that is going on these days.

Goingnowherefast

iTrader: (1)

I don't know too much about how the NC classes in most racing series, but I would think the main problem with an NC2 is that you are getting really close to pretty used AP1 S2000 prices. An AP1 is a hell of a lot more car than an NC.

Chilicharger665

iTrader: (2)

Ok, but most AP1's are beat to hell these days and are way more expensive to modify. For instance, what does it cost to get a new engine for an AP1 S2000? You can get a fully forged and built 2.5 engine from Joe at Dynotronics for 7k.

The new formula is going to become finding a blown-engine or otherwise cheap NC1, put a 2.5 in it, wheels/tires/suspension/rollbar, and get a huge bang-for-your-buck.

Gee Emm

I have seen a reference to Haltech developing an NC PnP Elite, with ABS functionality, supposedly being done in the US. Not having an NC, I haven't run this down so treat it as hearsay.

hornetball

iTrader: (4)

NA/NB parts availability from MazdaSpeed is really good. Never looked for NC parts over there, but I would be surprised if there are parts issues for cars that were still being sold new in 2015 and still have warranty. Strange . . . .

I'll bet there are a lot of NC flood cars out there begging to be transformed into racers.

z31maniac

But as pointed out, still not as wide as the rollbars on the NA/NB..........and permanent hardtop on a dual-duty car sounds kind of meh.

AP1 has too many issues to be corrected for the price.

No racing, just HPDE and possibly TT later on if I could get my skills up to par. I really don't even know if I want to a dedicated track car again. That means having a truck as a DD, needing to find a spot to put a trailer (which there isn't the way my house sits on it's corner lot) whine whine excuses excuses, I know. TEchincally I guess I could, but that would mean concrete on the other corner of the house, take out 1-2 trees, tear down fence, build gate, etc.

Reverant

iTrader: (10)

O hai.

tyhackman15

AP1 needs a TON more work to be on the same level as a basic NC build. NC with ohlins, bolt ons, a flash, and some minor weight reduction is a beast on the track. Don't listen to people who haven't driven them, NC is a great platform for HPDE.