550/336 on a 1600lb car. You tell me.

You can have them. As I said, the travel is completely covered by the 7" spring.

This is 100% true. Relative to shock position, everything sits in a much different place, and the jack points on the frame, being the lowest part of the frame, can't be compared much to the pinch welds on a miata, because the guts hang lower/the floor is proportionally higher. I'd say a 4 inch pinch weld on a miata is similar to a 5-5.5 inch jack point height on an exocet

I don't think the factory swaybar placement is right, either, but I fixed that with a BMW piece.

Major Leage Duning - Spring Rate Calculator

When running a 1000#main spring and a 150# tender the combo spring rate is 130# until the tender blocks solid and then the 1000# spring kicks in. So once the suspension is unloaded and the tender is extended until it fully compresses, the springrate is 130#. So in effect, your springrate varies from 130# until it compresses and the main 1000# spring rate kicks in and with a compressed bumpstop tops out at maybe 1500#.

A 7 inch 550# spring would have a variable rate from 550# to approximately 1500# with a compressed bump stop.

Which combo is better? That probably depends on the car setup and tires used.

Why do you insist on googling shit and then rehashing it in poorly worded, mostly uninformed paragraphs that are only slightly relevant?

Let's play a game where you only comment when you have extensive, first hand knowledge of the subject.

Because some people think they are running a 1000# spring rate all the time when they are in effect running a 130-1500# variable rate spring combo.

Why are you being rude to me? Isn't this a discussion forum? Aren't we to discuss stuff?

Other than getting a potentially lower ride height, I don't see any advantage of the high rate spring/tender combo unless the front swaybar allows enough droop to unload a spring.

As usual, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

Explain it to me.


It looks to me that the rear swaybar limits droop to a point that the tenders don't come into play.

Even the video on page 1 of this thread isn't very convincing of the need for tender springs in the front, they barely come into play. BTW, those front tie rod end angles look like they'd cause bumpsteer.

IIRC, the Targa Miata didn't run tender springs.

No, you stupid fucking twatwaffle.



Oh, you're just going to disregard video evidence of the helpers helping, with a fucking massive front bar. Right then.

Are they 2.5" helpers, by chance?

What length main front spring in that video? Wouldn't a slightly longer main spring accomplish the same thing depending on what ride height you are aiming for?

Added to lexicon, thanks!
Fbody, keep saying wrong stuff.
I'm learning in this thread.

No, because a helper with a thousand pound spring has a 130# rate for the travel of the entire helper spring. Do you know what weighs much more than 130# per corner?

Now, if there is just a thousand pound spring in each corner, do you know how much it will compress under the load of a two thousand pound car? Not a fucking lot.

Do you know where all droop travel in a suspension comes from? It comes from the collapsed spring rate of a car under only the force of gravity. If you have no more compressed spring to push into droop, you have no droop. If you hit a big enough bump with no droop you are out of control till gravity returns you to the road.

Did you not read anything in this thread? Or do you just spout whatever nonsense comes into your head.

100% irrefutable fact right here. Amazed with the other nonsense in this thread in what is normally an intelligent forum. If you're one of the posters who disagree with the above please go an spout your ridiculous arguments elsewhere.

Earlysport

OK, I guess I was wrong.

Exactly what I was saying on #27, Bob just explained it better. I run a low ride height, 4" frt, 43/8" rear. I have 850# frts and 450# rrs and my travel before the springs go loose is 1.5" UP frt and 1.75" in the rr. Around a smooth corner I doubt my iside lifts anywhere near that in the front, the rear may get close to that under turn in while braking, but I doubt that it also goes loose. If I ran on rough tracks with some rough bumps I would add helpers, but since I don't I don't think they are needed. All I'm trying to say even with 850# spring and 2220# of weight there is a fair amount of compression.

LCA movement
 

That shows helpers helping. It also shows what appears to be a LOT of lateral (in-out) movement of the lower arm, based on the position of the lower bolt on the endlink relative to the seam. Is this for real, or an artefact of something else, camera movement perhaps?

Control arms move on an arc, you know? If you compare something on the arm to a vertical body seam I would expect it to get closer to said seam on compression travel.

I think it might be an illusion between that, the flex of the endlink, and the sidewall rolling so hard. If you compare the inside of the arm, back by the rear alignment bolt, it doesn't seem to move as much.

Thanks, I understand the arc thing, seemed to be more than I expected though.

I would not expect any/much movement at the rear of the arm, the front bushing would be taking most of the cornering forces, and if there is lateral movement (beyond movement along the arc) that is where I would expect it to be. I think you are right though, unless there are some really shot bushes in there, it is movement along the arc.

60mm

I dissagree with helpers not being better even on smooth tracks. The reason I went so high 1000 lbs in the front was I would use all the bump travel available on a flat parking lot while auto crossing just due to the lateral grip levels. With rates that high you don't have shit for rebound travel. even with helper springs my springs come loose. I need like 1" longer helpers I think.

Run softer springs, you'll have more rebound travel, I think 1000# springs are to much for a miata on the track, can't speak for autox. I am running MCS's and haven't had issues with not having enough bump travel also I'm not running 275 hoosiers.

When there is enough grip, 1000# fronts are needed along with the 1.25" Racing Beat or larger front bar.

IMO there is alot more to, it then grip. The weight of the car , roll couple and alot of other stuff has alot to do with it. I am no suspension tech. but I do know that nascar cup cars are running less then 1000# springs on the right side sometimes and they weigh a lot more then our miatas and lots more grip and aero.

Yea it was interesting I learned some stuff last year fiddling with stuff. Adjusting in small increments of front bar stiffness smaller than most people ever have and found some magic at about the point the inside front tire will lift powering out of corners, stiffer relative front than that didn't help and softer than that was slower. ended up with way more front roll stiffness than I ever thought would work well. I think this was because my prior setup knowledge of balance was based on the flawed experience of the front being too deep in the bump travel on the outside front tire. the back is soft with no bar but it still feels balanced and puts down power well. keep in mind with the boost turned up this is a 400hp car with a splitter 6" past the front bumper and a GT1000 rear wing running 275 A6 Hoosiers on 15X11 wheels.

There is another school of thought out there regarding droop travel. From Penske:

At ride height generally you will want as much bump/compression stroke as possible, and roughly 1"-2" of droop/extension travel.

Obviously the word "generally" makes this statement apply to everything and nothing all at once. FWIW, my shocks have little droop travel and therefore don't require a tender spring in the front. The front tire does not come off the ground. The rear is a different story and is probably unseating during a run. I don't have wheelspin issues but then again I don't make any power. Maybe a tender spring in the rear might affect the front's behavior?

What is the reason for running at 4 inch at the pinchweld ride heights? I know on some cars, if you lower too far you can mess up the roll centers. Does this happen with the Miata? I've also read that angled A arms aren't optimal and cause bumpsteer. At what ride height do you reach a point where you are hurting more than helping?

On a very stiff car (or race car), which is probably very aero driven, not having a lot of droop makes sense. Miatas are not race cars to begin with. Different designs can work well, setup is the key. Always compromises.

Very interesting discussion btw.

Ben

What Hector said. I have seen pics of my car in sharp corners and the inside isn't much higher then when it is sitting still. The outside fenders are down over the tires a little more. I am also running 6" of splitter up front with end plates and a wing in the rr with a wickerbill. I think if anything the wing and splitter keeps the car planted on the inside in a corner. If the tracks were rough I would have helpers. When I used to race for real there was the age old debate on spring rates and that was a while back and it well most likely continue forever as with shocks.

Yes.

Another symptom is that it only works well with about 23" (580) high wheels (unless you know how to compensate).

Are you saying that 4 inches is the lowest before issues or that 4 inches is low enough to cause issues?

Yes you get into bump steer but there is a lot that can be done to help the situation. Go to 949's site and read the miata race alignment section. I used to run 3.75 frt. Emillio tested different heights quite some time ago and even though you get into bump steer the cars were faster low.

My statement above is absolutely true, depending on several different factors. On my street Miata, at a 5 inch pinch weld height with Bilsteins, 450# 7inch front springs and a Energy suspension isolator at the top, the springs don't come lose at full droop. So, as I stated, depending on ride height, spring rate and spring length, you may or may not need a tender spring in the front.

This is exactly what I've been trying to say but 95% of the no driving nerds here just refuse to believe it :jerkit:

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...5a822ad3a7.gif

If you run a soft spring, like a 450#, and you run with lots of ride height, like 5" pinch welds or any Exocet application, you probably don't need helpers.

If you run a stiff spring, like a 700# or higher, and you run 4.25" pinch welds or lower like most race-prepped Miatas do, then you have less spring compression and far more available droop travel (as measured from static ride height), you almost certainly need helpers to maintain proper suspension control in droop travel.

Seeing as we are in the race prep section, this should have been assumed by the nay sayers.

It's true that most of you guys are hardcore track junkies with seriously prepped cars but there are lurkers and guys with double duty cars here. My ride height is dictated by being able to get the car in the trailer.

If your car is too low to make it in the trailer then you simply don't have the proper ramps for the job. That's not an excuse.

"Race Prep"