|
Who is not running helper spings
1 Attachment(s)
Looking to get an idea who is not running helper springs on their track cars.
Pending thoughts on XIDA's w/o helpers. https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1452706219 |
Who is not running helper spings
No helpers here, but I have short rods (not a lot of droop) making the rattle gap less than half an inch with.
Would I have better success with longer rods and helpers, I don't know, I don't redesign shocks that often. I.e. not running XIDAs. |
2 Attachment(s)
The Xida, being a long stroke damper, requires dual springs to make full use of the extra stroke available. Spring stroke vs suspension articulation A 2000 lb car with the motion ratio of just under 1.5:1 won't compress a short 700# spring far enough to allow meaningful droop travel with long stroke damper. To get the correct ride height, one must lower the preload collar until the springs have 25-60mm of free play. Without the secondary springs (helper), there is no spring stroke left to push the tire down to remain in contact with the road. Weight To get the correct spring rate for competition and high performance use while retaining enough spring stroke, would require a 9-11" long spring. Springs aren't light, particularly less expensive springs so that isn't a good solution. Hyperco and Swift generally have the lightest and most consistent rate springs on the market. We use Hyperco's because they cost about the same as Swifts and many of the sizes utilize their proprietary OBD (Optimum Body Diameter) design technology which further reduces weight and helps control distortion under compression. Progressive rate Beyond the spring weight issue, the Miata doesn't need 400-800lb springs when at full extension as the contact patch loading is almost nil then. A much lower rate will work better with that lightly loaded tire. What is called for is a progressive rate spring. Look at any purpose built race car that has more than about 75mm of damper stroke and you'll see dual springs. Off road and rally cars will often use three separate springs stacked up for a huge spring rate range. Costs If you start with the higher rate single spring setup then upgrade to duals later, the main springs may have to be swapped for a shorter set at the cost of about $150/pair. We offer the Xida Club Sport without the helpers for the Miata owner on a tight budget. The system will do everything better with the dual springs in place though. We tested the single spring Club Sports on our local bumpy road course on a Spec Miata with 9" wheels. They worked very well. Well enough for me to be comfortable offering the XCS without the helpers. Guys have been adding high spring rate Ground Control and other coilover sleeves to their Bilsteins and Koni Sports forever with good results so it's not like it doesn't work at all. It's just less than optimum. "Less that optimum" wasn't in the design criteria for the Xida's ;). Without Helpers. Note the spring dangling free at full droop. Next image shows dual setup with coupler and Torrington bearings https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1452724806https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1452724806 |
None here with MCS's and I have a couple inches at full droop but the spring stays on the lower perch and goes back on the upper perch when loaded and any of the tracks I've been on hasn't unloaded the suspension enough to unload the spring that much.
|
no helpers here on Gen1 Xida's
I've used plenty of curb at Lime Rock without issues. Also non-issue on most streets. Looking back though, if you can afford Xida's, you can afford helpers. I'd rather have them. I will probably add them next time the coilovers are off the car. |
No helpers on my 01, and the rears have too much play in the springs and they come unseated with droop. I think that the car would be faster with helpers (not to mention the unseated springs dicked up the threaded collars), so it's on the list of improvements when the Exocet chassis is swapped on. If it's in the budget, get the helpers.
|
No helpers but I do run a very low rate tender spring to keep the springs on the seat. The tenders are closer to 75lbs if I recall. Pros and cons to each setup.
|
Originally Posted by jmann
(Post 1303880)
None here with MCS's and I have a couple inches at full droop but the spring stays on the lower perch and goes back on the upper perch when loaded and any of the tracks I've been on hasn't unloaded the suspension enough to unload the spring that much.
Originally Posted by k24madness
(Post 1303933)
No helpers but I do run a very low rate tender spring to keep the springs on the seat. The tenders are closer to 75lbs if I recall. Pros and cons to each setup.
I've driven XIDAs with and without helpers. The car is better over curbs and large pavement undulations with the helpers. If you're spending the money, spend the extra and do it right. |
2 Attachment(s)
This should have been posted a long time ago.
Originally Posted by emilio700
Xida, being a long stroke damper, requires dual springs to make full use of the extra stroke available.
Spring stroke vs suspension articulation A 2000 lb car with the motion ratio of just under 1.5:1 won't compress a short 700# spring far enough to allow meaningful droop travel with long stroke damper. To get the correct ride height, one must lower the preload collar until the springs have 25-60mm of free play. Without the secondary springs (helper), there is no spring stroke left to push the tire down to remain in contact with the road. Weight To get the correct spring rate for competition and high performance use while retaining enough spring stroke, would require a 9-11" long spring. Springs aren't light, particularly less expensive springs so that isn't a good solution. Hyperco and Swift generally have the lightest and most consistent rate springs on the market. We use Hyperco's because they cost about the same as Swifts and many of the sizes utilize their proprietary OBD (Optimum Body Diameter) design technology which further reduces weight and helps control distortion under compression. Progressive rate Beyond the spring weight issue, the Miata doesn't need 400-800lb springs when at full extension as the contact patch loading is almost nil then. A much lower rate will work better with that lightly loaded tire. What is called for is a progressive rate spring. Look at any purpose built race car that has more than about 75mm of damper stroke and you'll see dual springs. Off road and rally cars will often use three separate springs stacked up for a huge spring rate range. Costs If you start with the higher rate single spring setup then upgrade to duals later, the main springs may have to be swapped for a shorter set at the cost of about $150/pair. We offer the Xida Club Sport without the helpers for the Miata owner on a tight budget. The system will do everything better with the dual springs in place though. We tested the single spring Club Sports on our local bumpy road course on a Spec Miata with 9" wheels. They worked very well. Well enough for me to be comfortable offering the XCS without the helpers. Guys have been adding high spring rate Ground Control and other coilover sleeves to their Bilsteins and Koni Sports forever with good results so it's not like it doesn't work at all. It's just less than optimum. "Less that optimum" wasn't in the design criteria for the Xida's ;). Without Helpers. Note the spring dangling free at full droop. Next image shows dual setup with coupler and Torrington bearings https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1454433187https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1454433187 |
seems like every single video on youtube with xidas with helper springs they are compressed 100% of the time. I get the whole ifyou can afford $1700 coils you can afford $1920 coilovers. I look at is as I'm stretching myself to get them as is.
|
Originally Posted by blkmkiii
(Post 1305122)
seems like every single video on youtube with xidas with helper springs they are compressed 100% of the time. I get the whole ifyou can afford $1700 coils you can afford $1920 coilovers. I look at is as I'm stretching myself to get them as is.
|
Emilio have posted a video a long time ago where the helpers are "in play" during an AutoX, IIRC :o
|
|
...and there you have it.
I'm bad at teh searching, apparently. |
First video was unlisted, so you couldnt search for it anyways.
|
So this video has me confused, again I have no idea of the drivers abilities, or the ride height. During a quick stop watch he is on for the spec miata record on rs-3 tires so likely a bit off pace but in the name of turning I chose this video. But at no time in this video did the helper make any moves. At rest it appears that there is double the bump stop in available stroke. Same as most that I've seen in other videos. Autox is about quick fast transitions which would make a different case than a track car.
|
Originally Posted by blkmkiii
(Post 1305518)
So this video has me confused, again I have no idea of the drivers abilities, or the ride height. During a quick stop watch he is on for the spec miata record on rs-3 tires so likely a bit off pace but in the name of turning I chose this video. But at no time in this video did the helper make any moves. At rest it appears that there is double the bump stop in available stroke. Same as most that I've seen in other videos. Autox is about quick fast transitions which would make a different case than a track car.
|
1 Attachment(s)
I tend to do that. Thank you for not owning me.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1454858874 |
Originally Posted by emilio700
(Post 1305527)
You are deeply overthinking it. Helpers work. The only reason to leave them off is to save a few bucks. Your suspension will still work without them but it will work better with them. It's really simple.
But why not just run a longer spring to begin with. Helpers dont sit flat/true, and are a general annoyance to adjust around. What benefit does a 5.5" spring and helper give the end user over a 7" spring of the same rate. |
Originally Posted by Dietcoke
(Post 1305657)
Why not use a longer main spring. I have helpers on the rear, and none on the front, because I cant run my fronts into droop beyond the spring limits and the helper in that case (as with most installed cases) ends up just a stupid stacked spacer. Just because the shocks will droop x far doesnt mean the suspension on the given car will, especially in the case of miata front end.
But why not just run a longer spring to begin with. Helpers dont sit flat/true, and are a general annoyance to adjust around. What benefit does a 5.5" spring and helper give the end user over a 7" spring of the same rate. |
Originally Posted by aidandj
(Post 1305658)
Because you can get lower without running into spring bind with shorter springs. Longer springs have a higher block height.
|
A light car will not fully compress springs. When you have a gap at full droop adding a longer spring will only raise the car because a longer spring compresses the same amount. But at full droop you will still have the gap.
|
Originally Posted by aidandj
(Post 1305663)
A light car will not fully compress springs. When you have a gap at full droop adding a longer spring will only raise the car because a longer spring compresses the same amount. But at full droop you will still have the gap.
|
Helpers are needed to take up the spring at full droop. Correct? No matter how long a 700# spring is it will always be unseated at full droop when a Miata is set at a low (4-4.5") rode height.
|
Originally Posted by aidandj
(Post 1305666)
Helpers are needed to take up the spring at full droop. Correct? No matter how long a 700# spring is it will always be unseated at full droop when a Miata is set at a low (4-4.5") rode height.
|
1 Attachment(s)
For example, I replaced the left setup with the right spring, because just like in the video, the helper stays completely crushed and serves no purpose other then being a stupid uncentered offset spacer. The front end doesn't have the same travel the rearend does, even if the shocks are physically capable of it, the suspension and swaybar will not allow it.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1454905409 |
The helper is not just a spacer, it extends when the weight is removed keeping the main spring in contact then compresses and becomes a spacer when fully loaded. A longer spring has to be adjusted lower just like a helper, only it is not compressed all the way so when the suspension goes into full droop it well not extend enough to keep the slack out if that makes sense.
|
Originally Posted by jmann
(Post 1305682)
The helper is not just a spacer, it extends when the weight is removed keeping the main spring in contact then compresses and becomes a spacer when fully loaded. A longer spring has to be adjusted lower just like a helper, only it is not compressed all the way so when the suspension goes into full droop it well not extend enough to keep the slack out if that makes sense.
A helper spring that is under 100% compression at all times and can not be physically extended due to lack of suspension or shock travel vs installed height is a spacer. (and not a good one) This happens under 2 scenarios. 1: The shock perch is set in such a way that full droop keeps the main spring somewhat compressed without a helper (no void under full droop) 2: The swaybar limits free suspension travel Both apply to me, so helpers don't make sense. Suspension isn't one size fits all, kids. |
We are talking about a shock that can be extended longer then the main spring is, understood??????
|
I don't think you get it.
A longer main spring will still be unseated at max droop travel, all you stand to gain is the ability to not lower the car past a certain point running a longer spring. Most miata with lowered geometry have unused droop travel, the helper spring makes up that droop travel when there is no load, like cornering and hard bumps. The helper spring will keep the tire in contact with the road. Happens a lot on my 99ae billies and 7" springs, no helpers. If I'm off the ground, I can kick my tire down a good 2.5", front and rear. No bueno for torsen. I hear it clack around, see the witness marks from springs hitting sleeves. I haven't even been to a track, yet. You could use the main spring for droop travel, but if you do that then you have to preload the spring, means you can't go low. The only way to make up the droop travel is a spring with softer rate than the main one, hence helpers. So you don't ever see the helper move on your car or track, don't mean it doesn't happen to the rest of us. |
Originally Posted by Dietcoke
(Post 1305683)
How many times do I have to explain this before it's understood.
A helper spring that is under 100% compression at all times and can not be physically extended due to lack of suspension or shock travel vs installed height is a spacer. (and not a good one) This happens under 2 scenarios. 1: The shock perch is set in such a way that full droop keeps the main spring somewhat compressed without a helper (no void under full droop) 2: The swaybar limits free suspension travel Both apply to me, so helpers don't make sense. Suspension isn't one size fits all, kids. MX-5 Miata Forum - View Single Post - Xida CS vs. FCM NAs With enough stroke, helpers become a benefit. Not enough stroke, helpers not needed. Not complicated. |
Whats the distance from the upper spring perch to the shock body on a front xida at full droop - as in the exocet video (with your xidas) the shocks have the travel, but guess what, the suspension as setup won't allow the helper to do anything but be a spacer, which just brings me back to the whole helpers arent always necessary thing, even with long stroke shocks.
|
Originally Posted by Dietcoke
(Post 1305687)
Whats the distance from the upper spring perch to the shock body on a front xida at full droop - as in the exocet video (with your xidas) the shocks have the travel, but guess what, the suspension as setup won't allow the helper to do anything but be a spacer, which just brings me back to the whole helpers arent always necessary thing, even with long stroke shocks.
|
Originally Posted by Arca_ex
(Post 1305689)
If the helper is compressed the entire time then buy better tires and drive faster.
Like I said, I have helpers in the rear, they just arent needed in the front, as setup. |
I see the helpers working from about 4:00 on the video last page, exocet one.
What bushings are you running? |
Rod ends.
|
Well, there you go. You probably limited droop travel somehow. Are the rod ends binding in the subframe or something?
|
No, I don't have xidas, my shocks probably have 3/4-1 inch less travel and I use 7 inch main springs. I'd like to upgrade next winter offseason if funds permit, they're great shocks.
|
So then why the fuck are you commenting here if you don't have the problem being discussed.
|
Originally Posted by aidandj
(Post 1305699)
So then why the fuck are you commenting here if you don't have the problem being discussed.
And I'm not. Anything else you'd like to cry about? |
Originally Posted by Dietcoke
(Post 1305700)
Because the fuck the question being discussed is "Looking to get an idea who is not running helper springs on their track cars." ie: the first post.
And I'm not. Anything else you'd like to cry about? |
Originally Posted by Arca_ex
(Post 1305703)
And the first post specifically references Xidas sooo...
|
Originally Posted by Dietcoke
(Post 1305660)
People have that issue, ever? If I set my coilovers to 1/4 height, my exhaust and transmission would be resting on the ground.
|
All of your posts can be summed up by HEY GUYS DID YOU KNOW I HAD AN EXOCET
Congrats on being the 1% of Xidas users. |
He doesn't even have xidas bro.
|
What is the round clamp called that is affixed to the swaybar in the first "suspension cam" video?
Does this improve swaybar performance? or general suspension performance? |
1 Attachment(s)
That's just a split shaft clamp, keeps the swaybar center.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1454971815 |
^thanks
|
Originally Posted by Dietcoke
(Post 1305668)
No, it will not be, lol. Just like in the exocet video posted a few posts up, while the stock spring would come unseated without the helper (even though the helper is only functioning as a SPACER to the perch), a 1.5" longer spring (the length of the crushed helper) would do the exact same thing, and eliminate the need to run the helper at all, because it will never come uncompressed in that setup on the front end, only the rear, which is why I have helpers in the back.
The only way you are going to change that is by going to a lower spring rate or having a section of the spring operate at a lower spring rate such as a helper spring. |
If the front spring is 6 inches you should run a tender spring, on a Miata. If you are using a 7 inch front spring depending on ride height, you might not need the tender spring. With a Racing Beat front bar, I'm not sure that you'll have enough droop to warrant a tender with a 7 inch spring unless you get both front wheels off the ground.
Home - PAC Racing Springs have very good prices on tender springs, listed as flat wire springs. |
FWIW there is a difference between helper and tender springs even though the 2 are often used interchangeably.
Tender only locates the coil when extended, and usually has close to nothing spring rate. Helper are lower (~100#) springs that locate and provide some spring rate when extended. |
Yes, you could need a helper spring no matter the length of the main spring.
A 6 inch 700" spring under the front of a 2K miata weight will compress something stupid like around a half of an inch. If that is the only spring you have, then at most you will only have a half inch of droop travel. If it's a 550lb spring, it's still only barely over the fat side of 1/2" of compression under the weight of the car. Regardless, a 8" spring and a 6" spring rated for the same thing (700lbs/inch) are both going to compress the same amount. More ridiculous bullshit from wannafbody... |
Originally Posted by wannafbody
(Post 1306201)
If the front spring is 6 inches you should run a tender spring, on a Miata. If you are using a 7 inch front spring depending on ride height, you might not need the tender spring. With a Racing Beat front bar, I'm not sure that you'll have enough droop to warrant a tender with a 7 inch spring unless you get both front wheels off the ground.
Home - PAC Racing Springs have very good prices on tender springs, listed as flat wire springs. IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT LENGTH SPRING YOU USE ONE BIT the only thing that matters is the spring rate the amount of shock travel and where you set your ride height. longer springs should be used for coil bind issues only. Run stiff springs and they don't deflect much when you put the static weight of the car on them. The shocks have enough rebound travel to run soft springs which if you put the weight of the car on them they deflect a lot. If you don't run soft springs then the shocks have more rebound travel than the springs have completely unrelated to the static length of the spring. OEM springs are like 150 lbs/in and you need a spring compressor to assemble them we are putting 700 + in there. I'm actually using 1000’s in front on my car. |
Originally Posted by bbundy
(Post 1306182)
if you have say a 700# 6" long spring and you adjust the perch to get your ride height at a preferred value you end up with say 1.5" of gap between the spring and the perch when its unloaded. If you replace that spring with an 700# 8" long spring then re-adjust the perch to get the same ride height. you will have the same 1.5" gap between the perch and the spring when its unloaded. its just that your adjustable collar will be set 2" lower on the shock body to achieve the same ride height.
The only way you are going to change that is by going to a lower spring rate or having a section of the spring operate at a lower spring rate such as a helper spring. Since the helper spring just acted as a spacer to the spring perch, I replaced the 5.5 with a 7" spring, and all is well, the gap is gone, and perch height and ride height hasnt changed. Make sense? |
You must be running some seriously shitty suspension. Either that or you don't run real men springrates, you ride sky high, or you've fucked shit up with the rod ends. An exocet don't weigh anything, makes no sense that you have no droop travel at all. If you drive into a pothole more than a half inch deep you are flying, same thing off big enough bumps. The tire could be put into the road with the force of a helper spring, instead you are content on relying on gravity alone.
Whatever floats your boat. Can I drive over and buy your helper springs? |
Originally Posted by Dietcoke
(Post 1306392)
Your logic is close, but incorrect. Let me tell you how it actually worked. I had a 5.5" spring and a 1.5" gap when unloaded. This gap was previously taken up by a helper spring (Which stayed completely compressed at all times, since there was no extra shock travel for it to come uncompressed).
Since the helper spring just acted as a spacer to the spring perch, I replaced the 5.5 with a 7" spring, and all is well, the gap is gone, and perch height and ride height hasnt changed. Make sense? A 5.5 inch spring and a 7 inch spring with the same perch height and no helper. The 5.5 inch spring car will sit 1 inch lower to the floor. (Because 1.5" motion ratio) |
Exocet suspension geometry issues
Exocets have their upper shock mounts nearly 2" higher than a Miata. We discovered this about a year ago when attempting to align one in our shop. We published our results. Exomotive now offers a spacer to allow Miata shocks to work. I heard a rumor that Exo was considering relocating the shock mount locations for the US market. Why the geometry error? It was intentional to allow those running stock shocks/springs to be "lowered". That didn't work either way. In any case, we always warn customers not to attempt Xida install on an Exocet unless the optional spacers are installed to correct the Exos geometry.
Leave the spacers out with JDM adjustable coilovers (short stroke) and the shocks will not only be topped out, you will have significant preload there too. To say the car will not handle well is an understatement. They get away with bad setup because of their extraordinary power to weight. I have other issues with the platform but thats for another time. |
Originally Posted by emilio700
(Post 1306424)
... I have other issues with the platform but thats for another time.
|
Originally Posted by stefanst
(Post 1306446)
Could you please elaborate on this- maybe in another thread? I'm trying to decide between building an Exocet and an Eliminator. Any input from you would be MOST appreciated.
Edit: I only bring up the shock placement issue because not every Xida customer with an Exocet understands or even knows of the potential set up difficulty. Incidentally, once the spacers are in and correct ride height is set, the chassis is not "low". To put the piston in the same part of the stroke as it would be in a Miata, the ground clearance under the frame is 8-10". This is not correctable but just how the thing is fundamentally laid out. |
The eliminator is all stock Miata geometry. So no issues there.
|
| All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:09 PM. |
© 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands