Hello! I installed a GT2560R on my 96 Miata, full Kraken Turbo Kit with 640cc injectors (93 octane, stock motor with 78k miles). The car has been running great, and I'm using a Mac solenoid to control my boost that I've got at 10psi. However, so far, I have my entire timing table above 100kpa at 10 degrees because I am deathly afraid of blowing up my motor. (Yes, I do understand this is extremely conservative)
I have a few questions.
1. How should I go about tuning my timing table above 100kpa without having a means of monitoring knock and without a dyno?
2. Would it be realistic to expect to be able to tune my car using a virtual dyno? (Ideally 220whp, as I've heard 240-250 is the upper limit for the rods, unless I am mistaken)
3. How should I go about making a tune that is going to be safe during summer and winter, as I am located in Texas, where the weather is bipolar, and it can be 99 degrees one day and 50 degrees the next.
4. Is 10psi too much or is it within the 8-10psi range safe?

Thank you all so much. Any input is greatly appreciated.

 

Small update to the ignition table. I've been doing some research, and I have it retarded 2 degrees per 1.5psi of boost, as that's roughly how I have my table incremented. I'm assuming this should be safe, and I don't want my EGT excessively high due to extreme ignition retard. I've attached an image below of my current ignition timing table, and answers to these questions would be great.

1. How should I go about tuning my timing table above 100kpa without having a means of monitoring knock and without a dyno?
2. Would it be realistic to expect to be able to tune my car using a virtual dyno? (Ideally 220whp, as I've heard 240-250 is the upper limit for the rods, unless I am mistaken)
3. How should I go about making a tune that is going to be safe during summer and winter, as I am located in Texas, where the weather is bipolar, and it can be 99 degrees one day and 50 degrees the next.
4. Is 10psi too much or is within the 8-10psi range safe (with this timing table)?
5. Will the new timing table make it so that with 8-10 psi, I would be making too much hp?
a. How do I find the balance between timing and boost, while being safe? I would like to run 220whp (which I head is safe on stock bottom end with 93 octane).
6. Should I run wastegate with the timing table I have now, then slowly increase the boost and log runs in virtual dyno until I am at my desired horsepower, or what would be the safest approach?

 

Oh yeah, with that timing table and 10 PSI you're absolutely making 256.3 WHP. I'm actually shocked you're rods are still straight.

Jokes aside,
Step 1 - Go watch a bunch of tuning videos. IIRC you should be able to find a $1 link to HP Academy's intro to tuning course pretty easily. Retarding your timing too far isn't going to do you any favors.
Step 2 - Read up on how to use virtual dyno effectively, go find a good road and do some pulls, see what VD says. It's not perfect but it will give you an idea of where you're at. You're probably not going to get your timing table spot on without a dyno, but you can get it to a good point.

Depending on where you live I'd think 8-10 PSI seems pretty safe, especially with that timing map. If you don't know where you're at start small and step your way up. This is probably the most common setup on a Miata, there should be plenty of data for you to pick through. On 91 I run something like 15 PSI to get to ~220 WHP, but again, there are a lot of variables at play.

 

Oh dang… so is it due to the timing table or how much PSI I’d be running. I haven’t run 10psi on the new timing table yet, but I’m running 5. My plan is to slowly increase the boost and log in virtual dyno until I hit my ideal WHP. Would that be a safe approach?
All I really needed to know is whether or not the timing table is safe. I’ve been running 10psi perfectly fine with everything above 100kpa set to 10 degrees with no issues at all, so I didn’t think that the change I made would be negatively affecting it to such a degeee. I’ll look more into the HP tuner videos I’ve heard they are good and I’m pretty comfortable with virtual dyno so far, yet haven’t converted a log to it yet.

Any further recommendations on what I should do to keep it safe? Is what is putting me at risk the PSI or the timing table?

Edit: Yes, I’m stupid. I now understand you are joking. I’m just very cautious as I don’t have the budget for another engine 😅

 

You already got feedback on your timing map in another thread right? If you're not comfortable with that then pull a couple degrees out of it and run it. Do some pulls/VD at minimum boost and see where you're at.

 

I only got responses in this thread, I made the other post a while ago and got no replies so I decided to put it in another related thread. I just wanted to see others inputs on my timing table as I don’t have a means of monitoring knock or have access to a dyno. I just wanted to know if I had anything that looked like it would be risky so I could fix it before trying it. If this timing table is safe it’ll probably be what I will run for a while.
Other than that I also wanted some answers for the questions I had, yet had no luck in finding the answers to.

Got any inputs? Anything is always appreciated!

 

https://www.miataturbo.net/megasquir...advice-110554/

 

Ah! I guess I was mistaken on which thread you were referring to. I’ve done some updates to my timing table since then and never actually ran with the one I posted out of pure fear. I really am deathly afraid of knock lol and have only had the car running well (in boost) for a week or two now. I did some more research since then and have my revised timing table posted on this thread. Just wanted to get further input on updated one.

 

So let’s say I were to use VD to tune my ignition timing. How would I go about it without a means of monitoring knock? In Miata do you hit MBT or are you knock limited? If it is knock limited do I either have to run it on a base map that works or should I invest in making some detcans?

Really all I’m trying to figure out as of now is if the map I have posted earlier in this thread is safe and how I should go about tuning my ignition table without a dyno (or if I should spend the money and rent one).

 

So I took the liberty of doing a VD log. It was in second gear so not necessary ideal and the graph with 0 smoothing is quite choppy. I was at 5-6psi with the timing table that is posted above and here are the values that were provided by VD
HP: 198WHP @6066rpm
WTQ: 173ftlbs @6066rpm

Do these values seem accurate for what I was running? I feel like it’s a bit overshot. (Done with DynoJet option on VD. If this is the case, should I really only realistically be running 6-8 psi? As that (according to the chart and my best guess) would most likely put me at around 220 WHP.

 

Miatas are MBT limited, not knock. If you pass MBT, you'll stop gaining power, keep advancing past that and you'll start doing damage.

Dyno is best, but if you don't have one, VD works. Settings don't matter much, as long as you keep the consistent. I.E, dont keep changing your weight in VD or the vehicle, don't go uphill one pull and down the other, don't try different gears, etc etc. If you're increasing timing and power keeps going up, you haven't reached MBT. Too retarded of timing and you'll start doing damage to things too, so don't just run 10 degrees.

My rule of thumb is 28* at 100kpa, and like you said drop 1-2 degrees per PSI. Make sure your rows are actually every 1-2PSI, so 14.7-30kpa. Yours are every 11kpa, so you should be dropping .75*, which means at your top row of 177, you should be at 18-22 degrees, not 10.

Edit: and please don't ignore fuel, Make sure AFRs are below 12 in boost, both target and actual, with no lean spikes entering boost (lean spool/tip in), or at higher RPM (weak fuel pump)

 

Ok, well in that case I’m going to go ahead and rescale my ignition table…

With that being said, does the virtual dyno chart that I posted look about right? My guess is that it is not as it seems to me to be too much for 5psi at the timing that I have it at.

With the new ignition timing table am I going to be able to run 10psi as I was or will I have to cut boost so I’m not over the horsepower range of what the rods can handle?

Thank you for the input!

Edit: So far AFRs are looking good. Fuel pump is working just fine and I am not seeing any spikes or drops in AFR.

 

So, I’m gonna go ahead and follow the 1-2 degrees per psi (I’ll do 2 per just to run on the safer side). Then I think the plan is going to be that I’m going to install a knock sensor. I’ve heard good things about both the Bosch and OEM sensors, so I’ll do a little more research to see which is going to be ideal for my set up. Through that’ll be able to get a better idea of safely tuning my ignition table without feeling as though I’m going in blind. I’m then going to slowly ramp up the boost until I hit my goal of about 220whp on VD, then rent a dyno to do a few pulls to test the accuracy of those results.

If any of you guys differ in opinion or recommend me to do something else please feel free to let me know as I am fairly new to this. Just trying to take the safest approach to ignition timing and hp numbers.

 

With An fm turbo kit and a 2560, I would not be concerned with a knock sensor. 90% of the dozens of turbo Miata’s I’ve tuned haven’t had knock sensors. In fact those that did, I think I used knock to save one engine. The rest produced no knock with a typical spark table. I’d be more worried about bending rods with your setup. Keep timing conservative, and up boost until you meet your goals, and verify with the dyno time.

 

Gotcha, the thing is, I keep seeing differing opinions on knock limitation on these cars with these setups. Additionally, being fairly new to this, knowing "good timing" values is unknown to me, besides the 1-2 degrees per psi rule.

So let me just confirm what you are saying to make sure I am understanding it correctly. I should create a conservative timing map with known values that are highly unlikely to knock, then gradually increase the boost until I reach my desired WHP with VD, and then confirm with a few pulls on a dyno.

 

Correct. What I do is 2-4 degree taper ending at redline at 28 degrees in the 100kpa row. Copy this to your top row. Of your top row is 169 (10psi) subtract 10 and interpolate inbetween. You can take an extra degree or two extra out and interpolate, to be conservative. This is conservative already, so don’t be a conservative hero and take an additional 4 out.

most dynos rent in 1 of 2 ways. 3 consecutive pulls that the shop employee does. Try to leave your laptop in and log them to look at later.

If you’re renting by the hour, do a pull to redline, starting at 1500rpm. Make sure fueling matching target. Then do another after subtracting 2 degrees in all boosted cells. With a conservative map, you should lose power everywhere. If you do, congrats you’re not at MBT yet. Add 4 degrees (back tor original then +2 more), and keep going until gains stop, and subtract 2. If there are RPM columns that don’t see increased power, stop increasing them, but keep going with the columns that do. You’ll end up with a timing curve matched to your engine.

 

Ok, so I should be sitting at 16-18 degrees at WOT for 8psi? I’m still not 100% if my Miata is going to be knock limited or hit MBT so I’m a little scared to increase the timing table until diminishing returns as I’m not really trying to find out the hard way that it was knock limited. Unless I am mistaken and the case is that HP will increase at timing increases until you hit a point and after that point knock will occur. Similar to my understanding of MBT. I’ll definitely start by remapping my ignition table, most likely doing 1.5-2 degrees per psi and start by running low boost and logging in VD to figure out rough estimates. I’ll send a photo of the remapped ignition table tomorrow at roughly 8am-12pm CST. If you could get the chance to look over it when you can that would be amazing.

Again thanks so much for all the help, it’s much appreciated!

 

Ok, it’s a bit late, but I decided to finish the revised map now so maybe I’ll get a response a little earlier tomorrow. I took the advice, I did -11 degrees from 27.5 at 100kpa -2 extra just to be on the safer size and interpolated the map from there. Did some smoothing and looked over the map for spikes and dips and did my best to scale it appropriately.

Hopefully this is a good starting point/ safe place for me to run my car (maybe even permanently, or until forged internals and higher psi )

Please let me know your thoughts on this map as ideally this is a safe point where I won’t have to worry/mess with the ignition timing as discussed previously. If it’s good from here as I said I’ll most likely just slowly scale up the boost until I get my goal WHP in VD then rent a dyno to confirm the numbers and possibly polish the ignition map.




Thanks you all for the help!

Edit: Forgot to add the map, I’m so exhausted.

 

Eh, you're still be too conservative. I promise you, the advice I'm giving you is already conservative, and making it more conservative will only cause excess EGT heat from running too retarded, and significantly reduce your power. It's hard to do any pulls like this, because increased boost won't increase power, because you're pulling too much timing in the next row. I've created an example table, ignore everything below 100kpa:



Red circle: re-bin function. Press this, and you can edit row and column numbers. Finish by pressing "apply new X&Y values, Interpolate Z", and it'll change your columns and rows, but your ignition values stay where they were previously. For example, if you had 10 degrees at 1000rpm, and 20 degrees at 2000, but switched a column to 1500rpm, the new cell would be 15 degrees, half way between 10 and 20.

Yellow circle: I like to clean up my RPM rows, the random figures on basemaps annoy me. Decent resolution near idle, one about 250rpm below idle target, target, and one above, then every 500rpm after that.

Green circle: your real problem. Ignore the triple 183 rows, TS doesn't let you delete rows. We all think in PSI, but tables are in KPA, so sorry anyone else reading who's head hurts from all the conversions. Your table ends at 177, which is 11.1psi. I rounded up to 183, which is 12psi. I followed my advice and subtracted 12psi from the 100kpa row, entered it in the 12psi row (183kpa), and interpolated between. You'll notice you're 2-4 degrees more retarded than mine. Don't be afraid to try a bit more.

 

Ok, I’m gonna go ahead and work on cleaning up the rpm row values as well as the kpa incrementation. They I’ll follow what you said, sorry for all the hassle, I really appreciate the help!

I’ll post the table here in about 30-45 minutes as I have to drive to school.