Rube Goldberg's Supercharger Setup
 

I have a 1 Liter (62 cubic inch) twin screw supercharger. The plan was to put it on this summer, but I'm not sure I could reach my power goal of 300whp+ with it, so I began to consider a turbo setup instead. Problem is the SC only turned 9 or 10K snout speed stock, and I'm not sure I could spin it the needed 15-17K to reach my power goal and still be reliable, plus those speeds put it outside of it's efficiency range.

I bought another millenia SC a couple weeks ago. I'm considering installing both SC's, one hotside, one coldside, running in parallel. I would have to fab up a custom intake manifold to gain the needed clearance for the coldside SC. The coldside SC brackets could be integrated into the manifold for added rigidity. The intake manifold would be a flange with four primairies going to a collector, similar to a header. The throttle body would mount to the collector. The intake would be below the coldside supercharger. When the bracket/intake was finished, it would bolt to the head and to the stock points where the old intake was braced. Then the SC would bolt onto the brackets.

The hotside would be done similarly, but would be hinged on one side, similar to an alternator. This would allow me to tension the belt, eliminating the need for a idler pulley/tensioner assembly. Since I will be running two in parallel, the snout speed of the SC's can be cut roughly in half. Both have 4" 8 rib snout pulleys stock. With both SC's in parallel, I would only need a 4-5" crank pulley to make 300whp, where as I would need a 9-10" crank pulley if I used 1 SC, and I can't find round stock that big. So this would simplify the pulley making problem as I have 6" round stock and a lathe.

The good:

• I already have both SC's.
• I have brackets made already for the hotside SC, though I may redo them.
• I have an arc welder and access to a mig and can weld fairly decent.
• I can make my own intake manifold, exhaust header, and 3" exhaust, the only cost will be materials and my time.
• Making crank pulley would be easier and cheaper.
• Two SC's in parallel would use less HP to move the same volume of air at any given pressure ratio above 250CFM.

• Reducing snout speed will ensure the SC's will essentially last forever, as heat and case flex are the main killers, and both are caused by high RPMs. (heat increases linearly to about 9K snout speed, then increases exponentially. Case flex increases exponentially as well)
• Would be capable of moving up to 900 CFM efficiently.

The bad:

• Increased initial cost
• Increased complexity of adding another SC
• Will have to tap oil pan for two oil drains instead of just 1.(unless I can find away around this)
• Will need two oil feed lines.
• Will have to make new intake manifold
• reduced belt wrap, though that should not be a problem as the SC's won't use as much HP.
• Less initial boost at lower RPMs (below 3-4K) as the SC's efficiency is low at slow snout speeds. Probably only half of full boost available at 2K RPMs, reaching full boost by 3-4K.

Interested to hear everyone's opinions and suggestions to improve the setup.

if you must stay supercharged i'd say just sell off both superchargers and get a bigger one like an m90, could always do centrifugal supercharger since there's units that will easily meet your goals. other than that a turbo sounds like a really good idea, maybe even twin charged would be a slick route

Well, an M90 is a roots blower, not a twin screw. I would much rather have the twin screw from an efficiency standpoint. They have will make higher boost, heat the charge less, and use less power doing it. They also make boost sooner. A twin screw SC is better in every way except for initial cost. Plus I already have these units and am familiar with them. I don't want a centrifugal either, that's all the downsides of a turbo, combined with the bad things from a positive displacement SC. I'd rather turbo it then do that.

I don't want to twincharge it either. That would be expensive and complex. The dual SC's would be too, but not as bad. Again, I also have 2 SC's but I don't have a turbo and don't know much about turbos.

Perhaps a 1.6L or so twinscrew would be better, but I don't have one and they are expensive.

very interesting.... please be one of the first to do the setup :)

can't wait to see/hear to video... the whine is going to be crazy.

Yea two twin screw superchargers running unthrottled is gonna be pretty loud. I'm gonna do it. I think it will be a very efficient SC setup and very capable. I need to do some math to calculate SC speeds, but I'll be running them either 1:1 with the engine speed or maybe a little faster. The good thing about it is it will be 500whp capable.

just dont twincharge it.

TRIPLEcharge it.

I did some math from Corky's book Supercharged and I think I want about 460CFM going in the motor, so 230CFM from each SC. Looking at the compressor map, I'll need the blowers turning.....8K to do that, so a 4.4" crank pulley from SOT would put the SC at 7700 at 7K engine speed, so that will do fine. I know it's a 6 rib pulley, but I think I could just run the 6 rib belt and it would probably be fine. If it slips, I'll make a 8 rib pulley. It's only 75+ shipping for the 4.4" pulley, but the next size up is 120. Ha, with a 6" crank pulley (the stock size crank pulley the millenia had), I would be pumping out over 600CFM with both SC's......

Looking forward to seeing some good results. Good Luck

Actually, a twin-charge set-up could be done rather easily. Have the s/c mounted hotside like you're already doing, then do a rear-mount turbo. The r/m turbo can be utilized here because there is no worry about lag. Heat wrapping the exhaust will also help keep exhaust gases nice and hot for the turbo. Not to mention there is sufficient room where the muffler is. Hard part would be running a charge pipe to the s/c. Though I don't know what would be better, for the s/c to breathe into the turbo or suck through the turbo. (i.e. filter coming off the s/c and the s/c outlet going to the turbo or having the filter on the turbo and then the charge pipe off the turbo going to the inlet of the s/c). Not to mention the better weight distribution. Getting oil back to the oil pan would be rather easy as scavenger pumps are easy to get a hold of.

I think this would make for some interesting numbers. I brought this idea up on m.net awhile ago and didn't get much response. I also do not think it's been done yet with a Miata....you should be the first!

I like the OP's idea and you should do it.

Don't you have to rebuild one of those blowers though? I like dopplegayer's sc + rm turbo concept.

One of them does need a rebuild. I may rebuild it, or i may just get another that is in better shaper. I know where another is that may not need a rebuild.

I don't think I'm gonna do a turbo and SC setup. I have two SC's and it wouldn't cost too much money to get it going.

And turbo+supercharger has been done already on a Miata. Do the double supercharger. I love silly shit like that.

Could you have one of the superchargers blowing into the hotside of a turbocharger that blows into the motor?

I dont know... rebuilding s/c + fabing' a custom intake + pulley system + al lthat weight on the front and it sounds like a lot of stress for the front bearings/crank/pulley area.

I'd love to see 2 s/c's under the hood though.

I still also want to see a hotside s/c + r/m turbo...an easy 300+rwhp car with the best of both worlds.

Well the new intake will probably be lighter than the old one, but 2 SC's and all the brackets it will definately be heavy. The new header will be lighter than the stock cast manifold. I don't think I have to worry about the crankshaft, I won't have to run a lot of tension, only about 1/2 or what all the other SC owners run. Plus if I make my own crank pulley it will be 8 rib, so that will reduce the pull on the crank as well.

I need some advice on the intake manifold and charge pipe design. The SC's have a 2.5" outlet on top. I'm not sure but I was figuring on having the two pipes join and go into an intercooler, then out and to the intake. Problem is the pipes for the oultets are 2.5" To join them both into one large pipe I would need a 3.5" pipe to keep the area about the same.

Pipe Size /Area
2.5 /4.9
3 /7.1
3.5 /9.6

So what should I do here, use 3.5" charge pipes? I could say let them combine into a 3.5", then taper it down to 3" and buy an IC with 3" inlets and outlets. I doubt Ebay has IC's with 3.5" Outlets.

Also since I'm building a custom intake manifold anyway, I could make the collector for the intake say 3" or 3.5, but would need a really big TB, and that would make it touchy.

Ideas are welcome.

interesting idea...if you already have them...why not?

I think you'll be fine keeping 2.5" charge pipe...two 2.5's into a single 2.5' "Y". If you are doing the charge pipes in stainless you can get a very beautiful "Y" from Burns Stainless. Routing 2.5" would be much easier than 3" or 3.5", if you can even find 3.5" piping.

http://www.burnsstainless.com/Ypipe_std.jpg

You can get them any way you want, Burns is very flexible. Well worth the price to not have to do it yourself.

If you want to do the charge pipes in aluminum then I'd still do it the same way, with a 2.5" "Y", but do it myself cause cutting and fitting aluminum is much easier and quicker than stainless.

I'd keep your intake plentium at 2.5" and try to use your stock TB. I'm not a big TB guy at the moment, especially if the TB is after the superchargers.

Flow = pressure / resistance
Resistance = viscosity*lenght/diameter^4

You have the same viscosity in the pipe, so scratch that.

two 2,5" pipes 2*2,5^4= 78.125
one 3" pipe 3^4= 81

You'll get away with a 3" pipe, and have some change left :)

Well I'll likely use aluminum charge pipes. I could make my own dual 2.5" to single 2.5" Y adapter. I have a friend who is a machinist and has a TIG welder, so he can weld up aluminum if I make the parts. Hmm, tim says use 2.5 and Niklas says Y it to one 3". I don't know what would be the best or if either would make a difference. If the measurable differences are insignificant, I'll just stick with 2.5" for everything, though I will probably use a 3" collector for the intake, 2.5 just seems too small. I know I couldn't get 4 large pipes in a 2.5" collector anyway. I may use the stock TB, or I may use the one that came off the millenia, as I think it's bigger.

From what i can tell, a 2,5" pipe will more than fill your needs for 460 cfm.
http://www.pipeflowcalculations.com/flowrate/index.htm

Edit: the comparison i made was just to show that you would have more flow with a 3" pipe than with two 2,5" pipes :)

Here's a couple pics of the Y coupler I would build to combine two 2.5" pipes into one 2.5" pipe. I would probably have both charge pipes go the the drivers side area in front of the radiator fans and turn down, then to the coupler, then one 2.5" pipe down to the intercooler.

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/e...smx5/Ypipe.jpg

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/e...mx5/Ypipe2.jpg

That's fine. Keep in mind that the narrower the Y angle, the harder it is going to be for the welder to weld in between the Y. For Tig welding, you can only stick the electrode out so far before bad things start to happen. Not that big of a deal though, your welder friend should be fine.

Yea, I thought about that after I finished drawing it. I may change it to 15* angle if I need to, as that seems to be a common angle anyway.

So, about the intake manifold I want to build. It would basically look like a header, with large runners and a collector with a TB bolted to it. I'm wondering if I could get away with not building it equal length?

why would you like to build an intake of that type? just build a log type with runners, seems easier, and sure is more effective.

log as in reducing area log ;)

edit: didn't think right, coldside is was...

but i still think it would be best with a log type, equal lenght runners, just curved up, so that the intake-log sits next to the cold side.

I spent wayyy too much time doing it, but I now have a blueprint for the SC flange. It would seem simple, probably just a rectangle, four bolt holes, and a circle for the air to go through. Wrong. No two sides are parallel or perpendicular, all the bolt holes are in diff spots, no two lying in the same X or Y coordinate. Actually, the two left bolts share a X coordinate, but that's it. I had to use a caliper and Law of cosines to do all this. It sucked, but now it's done and I have a blueprint that's very accurate.

This is just a 1:1 scale pic of the flange. It doesn't have any specs in it yet, I'm still working on making the final print, I have 4 pages with numbers on them to put together to make the final print.

Edit: got the final print finished:
Attachment 214415

Piece of glass or lexan and a sharpie would have been pretty effective too! :) Or maybe a photocopier!

Yea, but the SC has two alignment pins that stick out of it, so a piece of glass or something wouldn't rest on it flat. It's done now and should be dead on accurate.

You are going to think I have lost my mind, but I will tell you the truth here. You can push 300 RWHP of air through a 2.00" pipe without a problem, given that I probably would Y 2 1.875" pipes into a 2.25 or 2.5" discharge. You don't need large pipes under pressure. As long as the air stays under roughly 350 feet per second and the discharge on the supercharger had nice transitions you will be fine.

Mark

^^^ Makes sense, that's how a lot of the OEM stuff on the millenia was, really small pipes. I'll just you both 2.5" pipes into 1 and buy a 2.5" IC and charge pipes, as they are plentiful on eBay.

I'm not sure how the intake is going to be done yet. I know it would be better to keep the SC close to the engine. The close it is, the more rigidly it will be mounted. I was thinking of something like have the SC close to the motor, and the intake below it. Is it common knowledge that a log manifold has X, Y, and Z benifits over say a 4:1 colector style? I just thought it might be easier, but if a log type will fit, I'll do that.

I'm wondering how I should go about doing all this. I will need to tap the oil pan on both sides for oil returns, as the SC's require oil feed just like a turbo. I would feel much better pulling the pan to do it as I don't want metal shavings in my oilpan. I understand to get the oilpan off it's drop the subframe or pull the motor. I have a new clutch/flywheel to put in and I'd like to do motor mounts too, so looks like pulling the engine is the thing to do, and do everything at once while it's easy. Probably do a coolant reroute too while it's out. Anything else to do while the engine is out?

I may try to fabricate all the SC hardware with the engine out. Should be much easier to work on hanging on a lift then cramped in my engine bay. However, I'd have to be damn sure I build it so that it will fit when it's put in the car. I'm thinking I'll take a lot of measurements from various points of the engine to the car so I can make sure my hardware stays confined to those points. Sound like a plan?

if you have A/C I recommend drilling/tapping the pan with the engine in the car and the AC bolted to the block... if my fitting had been 1/16" further up I would have been fucked.

nah fuck that Man just do a outline with a grease pencil or tap it where i tapped mine just by the motor mount there is no AC there. Tapping in the front of the pan makes no real sense to me unless it is your only option. With the exhaust etc of, and a 90 degree air grinder etc it is easy to tap in the middle.

I talked to another member who said he greased the bit, had air pressure blowing through the valve cover so air was blowing out where he drilled and taped. He used grease on the bit. He was careful not to get metal in it. When done, he flushed it 3 times with mineral spirits. The next day he pulled the pan and it was full of metal. I do not want metal shavings in my motor, so the pan's coming off.

Read up on the crazy power this thing putting out. Maybe an idea.

http://www.musclemustangfastfords.co...bra/index.html

yeah, same thing here... but in all honesty all of the bits were WAY too large to ever make it through the screen on the pick-up and were heavy enough that they were stuck on the bottom far enough away from the pick-up that it wouldn't have been a problem.

Well, I don't like the idea of metal shavings in the pan, plus it's possible for them to accumulate over the pickup tube and stick to it, causing oil starvation. I couldn't make my self do it KNOWING there's metal bits and shavings in the pan that potentially could ruin my motor. Plus I have to tap it twice, once on each side, and I'm not even sure I could do it on the passengers side, andI would be more likely to end up leaving metal in it.

Right now the plan is to weld the hotside brackets to the header flange for strength and rigidity. It will also be braced off the header tubes, as well as off the cast iron bracket the A/C compressor bolts too. This view only shows SC, the hinge, and the L brackets that go down to the header flange. Damn pics are sideways and I have no idea why, I rotated them correctly in my album.
http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/e...x5/schinge.jpg


Here's a top view of the SC bracket. Don't know why my scanner is not scanning right. This drawing is to scale. The brace for the A/C will brace the front where it appears it needs a brace. Pic is hard to understand, but it's a pair of hinges. The area's with the ((((( are where two pieces will be welded.
http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/e...scbracket1.jpg

Not sure if it matters, but on my coldside, its just a square AL box attached to the motor, w/ the M45 sitting on top. Very basic.

Also IIRC some people w/ S/C upgrade to the Mustang TB (70mm) I have never done it (nor really paid attention)so I'm not sure what else is involved.
The SOT forum is still up (the old BRP) and the TB upgrade is in there somewhere.

Got any pics of the SC mounted or the brackets you built? Would love to see them. Thanks.

Building a complete manifold from scratch I'd go with a larger TB myself. Might not honestly be needed, but hey, while you're there... :)

That article on the TT-SC Cobra is insane!! I don't even want to think about how much that setup would cost! Also can't believe the motor held that abuse! IMPRESSIVE! :D

Btw, Pat.. Update! NOW!

cool project.

are you planning on driving both sc's with one belt?

might be a little late, but here are some pics of the custom sc bracket I made. It mounts to the 2 center header studs, and the hole at the front of the head that normally holds the bracket for lifting the engine out.

its actually 3 pieces .. #1-a sort of D shaped plate, with 8 holes.. 2 are for the header studs, and 2 are for cap screws to mount to an small rectangular plate (the other 4 holes are unused), #2- a small rectangular piece with 5 holes. #3 - a long rectangular plate, with 6 holes, 3 for mounting to plate #2. The sc mounts to the rear 2 holes in plate 3, and the front bolt.

perhaps a little heavy, but has worked fine for the last 4 yrs.

rear
front
top
bottom
I probably have drawings for these if your interested.

I can't shake this SC idea. I've been planing to turbo lately since it's easier and cheaper and all that. But when I think of putting a pair of twin screws on the miata I start grinning. I've done said I was gonna do it. I want to do it. I have 3 SC's already. It would be a lot of work and fabrication, but when it's done it would be a hell of a setup. Could do 500whp with a pulley swap. I feel like I have to do it.

one more super and you've got one per cylinder. now there's a crazy idea.

Yea and I know where another one is too... lol. I'll be getting it too since they're cheap and I need another one that doesn't leak oil and need a rebuild. I think two will be plenty though. Two will fit with the stock hood, but I dunno about 3 or 4....

Awesome Idea, Pat.

I'd love to see the two superchargers goin at it.

I've got the coldside from BRP myself with the large throttle body. I've been dying to do the "ColdFusion" turbo/supercharger setup myself.

Now that I think about it, maybe I'll try and to a remote mount since someone suggested it.

I have a crapload of IHI RHB5 vj11/12's just sitting around in the garage.

Hmmmm....

-meaty

Quick update..
I'm buying parts for the build. I bought a 2, 2.5, and 3" mandrel builders kit online. 2" for the primaries on the header (I know right, that's gonna be big :) ), 2.5 for the IC pipes, and 3" for the exhaust. Ordered a GS radiator. Ordering a pair of 12" fans right now. Got 12' MS wiring harness for new standalone harness. Got RC 550cc injectors. Got thermostat housing for coolant reroute. Ordered a complete Ford EDIS igntion system. Got an ACT exteme clutch. Figure I'll keep colecting parts for a few weeks, then tear it down for the build.

Have you got a link to whom you bought your piping kits from?

I'm looking to add on some 2.5 inch mandrel bends to be able to mount my muffler for my exhaust (center exit). I have a piece of flexpipe that I was thinking of using (read: lazy ass and it was cheap and easier than doing a bunch of welds) .

Got a link to your kits?

Also, I think the runners on the Racing Beat header I have are 2" . Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

-meaty

RacingBeat header is 1.7 OD primaries and 2.375 OD collector. Mine will be 2" primaries to a 3" collector.

Here's where I ordered my bends from:
http://store.racing-solutions.org/

Ordered a pair of 12" fans for 53 shipped on eBay last night.

ooh man this is gonna be sick, even if it doesnt work that great, its still gonna be awesome to see, please post some pictures as soon as you can!

I hope it works well. Got the fans and got the EDIS4 ignition system. Also got a pair of idler pulley's from a Mazda 929 that will be the tensioner for the SC belt. Also got 24 gallons of -20*F windshield washer fluid 40% Methanol for 14 dollars. :) Tempted to go get more at that price.

I'm kinda hesitant to do anything just yet. Kinda just need to do it at once after all the parts are here. Start by removing everything that's not needed or being replaced or upgraded, get the basic SC hardware done, then manifolds, then install the other needed systems around that, then wire and plumb everything. Guess it would be more efficient to do it all at once while everythings apart so to speak.

I do need to order some exhaust stuff. Guess I need to put the car on the lift and see what will fit and get that ordered. Exhaust stuff, water injection, IC couplers, fuel lines, and oil lines is about all I'm lacking that's hasn't been ordered yet.

Ordered a 24" glasspack, 2 27" glasspacks, and a 5x8x20 bodied Magnaflow muffler. Basically there will be glasspacks and bends between the header and muffler. 3" in and out of the muffler, then transition to 2.5" out to the factory exhaust tip for the stock look.

Any updates on this? Very curious to see this in action.

Update: Haven't actually done anything yet. Did a compression and leakdown test and motor looks strong. Ordered a piece of 3/8" x 4.5" x 48" steel plate to make my flanges with. Weir technologies is PATHETIC. Mailed him a gasket over a month ago, emailed him about once a week five times and still he won't put my order together. Fuck him. Every time I emailed him to find out what the status was he had forgot everything. After 3 weeks of waiting I get " I'll try to have it ready in a couple weeks" That was 3 weeks ago. I'll make my own damn flanges.

About to order a 6AN braided line kit and fuel pressure regulator from SummitRacing.

Ordered a 4" (3.97 but who's counting?) crank pulley form StageOneTuning. It's the smallest crank pulley they sell. I have a 4" snout pulley, so that will be 1:1 drive. Oh well, I'll have plenty of headroom to upgrade. :) Also ordered a Mallory 30-100 PSI adjustable fuel pressure regulator. I'm building a new fuel system for the car. Turns out a local shop sells all the pipe to AN fittings or as they call them, "pipe to J.I.C." fittings for plumbing the fuel and oil lines. Very convenient indeed and all lines are double braided stainless and rated at 4200 PSI.

Looks like 99% of everything I can think of that I'll need has been ordered. I need to pick up a mechanical boost control thing so I can limit boost at first. I know MS will do it but I'd rather run the simple mechanical boost till I get the other stuff right, then fight MS to do it for me.

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/eng..._bb/index.html

Mike Moran used manifolds like you're talking about building for this project^^

The only reason not to use these is packaging enough plenum volume into the engine bay. FSAE/ other open wheel series's use this sort of intake manifold all the time.

Personally, I'd twincharge, or just run the snot out of one of these blowers, and replace them as needed (word is you have spares, lol). There's something to be said for deying convention for a reason. Doing it just be be different, at the cost of lots of heartache for yourself is a little silly, yeah?

Well, I'm doing it for several reasons. Using just 1 won't get me to my power goal. 1 is efficient to 230ish whp. After that it's sucking down lots of HP and blowing lots of hot air. 2 spinning will move the same volume of air cooler and use less power doing it above 250whp or so. Since I want to go straight to 300whp, it's appropriate. Granted using a larger twin screw would probably be a better solution. Thing is I already have these and they're readily available for cheap. 2 will also spin slower and should last a lot longer. It's gonna be a lot of up front work for sure. I hope that once it's done, it will be a reliable 300whp setup with the potential for 550whp with a pulley swap. Turbo guys can't buy a turbo efficient at 550whp and then drive it at 250 or 300whp. It would never spool.

Not twincharging it cause I don't like turbo's. Had 2 turbo cars and waiting for boost sucks. Twincharging would be the epitome of complex and expensive IMO. My setup seems complex and expensive too, but it's really not. It will actually be easier in some regards to use a pair vs a single SC. It will hopefully be cheaper than a good turbo setup too. Can't make any promises though till it's up and running, but all the SC hardware will probably be less than 500. Well, maybe more, but 40 a charger and that's w/ the recirculating valve, 81 dollar pulley, 12 for 2 tensioners, and then say 150 for oil lines and fittings. 100 for materials to build the brackets.

Ordered the 20x 1.5 sandwich plate adapter thingy for oil feeds. It has two 1/8 NPT holes for my two oil feeds to the SC's.