Thoughts about FFS kit for Enduro race car?
 

Hi,

I have about $4000k to build a 160-170whp super reliable Miata. What do you think about the FFS kits?

I don't need 500whp, 160-170whp is about the limit for the car. The car needs to last for a complete race and I can only stop for fuel every 2nd hour.

The other option would be Ecotec swap or maybe a K swap. I can not run an intercooler without being bumped into a different class. Low boost EFR is attractive but concerned about stuff breaking.

Thanks

I wouldn't add forced induction for 160whp. If you have $4k and need a reliable 160whp, build an n/a BP.

#THREAD

I dunno, for $4000k I'd probably go buy a Ferrari or several.

In all seriousness, best bet for reliability will definitely be N/A BP. 160whp isn't crazy.

Don't buy anything from "For Fuck's Sake".

Trade your '97 head (you didn't include that info so I had to look it up) for a better power '99-up head, squaretop or skunk intake, supertech double valvesprings, a megasquirt, and some decent cams. 160 shouldn't be a problem. And it will be much more reliable than the garbage you proposed putting on it. Seriously, FFS sucks ass.

Getting 2hrs per stint from a 160whp powerplant is not a feasible goal

I think going K-swap with $4K in hand is also pretty wishful thinking. Building a car that will last for 2 hr. stints at full song will make $4K melt like butter under a blow torch.

I would do a low-boost turbo at 6 or 7 psi.

Only one racing series in the world runs superchargers for power gain and that is because the rule book says they have to. NHRA drag racing. Everyone else runs turbos.

Any option listed other than an NA BP engine build are going to blow the $4k budget very quickly. The only place you *might* get close is with an Ecotec swap, but if $4k is a hard limit then that probably won't work. You can talk to the guys at Adrenaline Racing about that.

Unless it's actually a $4000k budget?

Head needs to be stock, from what I understand it's not easy to make 160whp with just cams, headers and a light "touchup"on the head. No overbore.

Why does it suck ass? I understand that power numbers are not the highest, but power is not the goal here.

Why not? The series has a cap that a stint can not be more than 2hours. And given the tiny fuel tank in a Miata it's hard to get more than 160whp.
Essentially you race for 2hours, then you fuel and swap drivers for 5min and then go out again.

Like 24hours of lemans but for normal people.

The K24A4 can be had for cheap, the kit is a pretty pricey but don't need all of it.

Interesting! Even if you don't have an intercooler?

It's not a hard limit at all, let's say it's $5500. But seems to be what other people swap for. Engines are cheap and the Ecotec kit is cheap as well. The SC kit is $5500.

(Apologize for not using the multi quote earlier)

Because the car will consume more fuel in 2hrs than the fuel tank can hold.

If we're talking about Chump/ChampCar, I have won races in that series with a Miata, so I know what I speak of. Our car made 120whp at most, it would BARELY go 2hrs on a tank. You propose to make 33% more power without any hit to fuel economy. That is not feasible.

One has to wonder, how competitive could a race team be, with a budget?

Any type of forced induction is definitely a bad idea. Even with Andrew's TSE kit, it's a shit ton of heat to control for 8 hours for all but the top teams, if at all. Andrew, feel free to correct me or go over what kind of budget would be required to do so, but I feel I'm fairly correct.

With a Megasquirt, semi-built VVT engine, RB header, 2.5" exhaust, a lot of dyno tuning, and 150hp, the team I race with, Race Invaders in Lucky Dog Racing League were A class, averaging around 1:32-34 at our last BP powered race at PIR, driving 10/10ths the whole time. We had a few mistakes.

Then we installed a V8 Roadster subframe, Ecotec miata swap kit, $600 LE5, and 3" exhaust and dyno'd at 185hp/185ftlbs. We've definitely had our bumps and bruises along the way, but after solving those it's been very reliable, and at the last PIR race we were averaging around 1:28-1:31 driving 8-9/10ths.

There are a few tricks you can do to increase the fuel capacity of the Miata to help with the 2 hour limit as well. At 185hp our team needs a few cautions and a little luck to truly make 2 hours at any given track. Typically strategy intervenes a little earlier.

You don't need crazy money. Few cars cost more than $40k, most cars are about $10k-$20k. But it's 90% skill 10% driver I would say, a good driver in a $2k shitbox will win over some bad driver in a cheaty $40k car.



Yes, chump.
Haven't race the Miata yet, doing research on a build. The fuel aspect seems to be very track dependent (COTA/Road America vs smaller tracks). So trying to figure out what makes sense, my previous car had 160hp and 22 gallons and could handle heat from a nuclear power plant.
So new to fuel issues :)

FI would be a simple way to reach Ecotec power goals, was hoping that low boost FI would be an option. Seems like most FI people cares about crazy power, of course shit break :)
The Ecotec was our initial goal but kits are on 6 month backlog and seems to take a while to sort out the car. All these FI kits seems to be a breeze to install in comparison.

Why the V8 roadster subframe?

thanks

You can use the stock subframe, but we preferred the exhaust routing options with the v8r subframe. Keep in mind you’ll wanna remake the mounts if you go this route. They hang in mid air with the v8 Miata frame, they rest on the stock subframe normally.

If if you haven’t raced the car yet, just race what you’ve got, upgrade power after suspension, brakes, fuel mods, driver/crew training, etc.

At 160whp with basic good heat management practices (ceramic coatings, heat shields, wraps, hood vents, etc) it's totally doable indefinitely, 6/8/12/24hr races with proper prep and vetting are doable. I would take Rover and do a 4hr enduro tomorrow, for instance. If you want to be competitive, however, the issue is fuel consumption, and unless you redesign the cylinder head and add direct injection, you aren't going to get around the fact that turbos have a higher BSFC than N/A cars do.

I still maintain that 2hrs of green-flag, full-pace operation at anywhere approaching 160hp is impossible. At 125hp it might be doable on a consistent basis.

For clarification sake, the original post was asking about the FFS kit and not forced induction in general which he is now discussing. I wouldn't piss on FFS if it was on fire.

With proper prep and shielding a Trackspeed, FM, or even MK Turbo kit could work at low boost for endurance racing. 160whp on your '97 head with many of these would only require about 5-7 psi which shouldn't be terrible for heat. It would be better with a '99-up head.

You're going to need to do some math and determine if the quicker lap times with the added power actually make you slower long term when you add in the additional fuel stops.

I echo the opinion of avoiding forced induction in an endurance car. Our team runs a NA with a BP4W swap that makes 135-140whp on the dyno Champ Car SE provides (Dynocom 2WD 5000 Series). It is a freshly rebuild motor. We can make a little over two hours on a tank of fuel in a dry race with a stock tank, vent moved to the top of tank, and a surge tank. Our typical fill after a 2 hour stint is 11-14 gallons depending on the track, cautions, and driver. So another 20whp we wouldn't be able to make the two hours mandated driver time. Forced induction requires richer AFR's to keep help reduce the stress on the motor, so even less likely to make the two hour stint.

If you're stuck on making 160whp, get a VVT motor and spend your money on rebuilding it make sure its in top shape. You can try to run the NB2 manifold and see if that gets you there, or you'll need a header. The issue you'll run into is that a OE VVT motor has to run the worse intake manifold (VTCS). You MIGHT be able to argue that you got a JDM/EUDM motor and it comes with the flat top so its legal. Don't think for a second you'll sneak it by the other competitors in impound though without clarification from Champ Car. Get a good tune and you should be close.

Would high-compression pistons be considered illegal? Shim under bucket lifters? Bigger cams? Lightweight flywheel?

In Champ Car? Not illegal, but they would add points. Its possible to build a 500pt car that makes 160-170whp. Glazed and Confused (car built by East Street Miata, who also builds Spec Miatas) is one team I know of that did it. 90-93 chassis, VVT swap, cams, and header. In a dry race they couldn't make 2 hours on fuel. At Barber last year, their fuel tank was stock, maybe with a relocated vent.

Agree with Andrew on the fuel consumption. Our analysis of budget racing distills down to gaining as much track position as possible with a car that can comfortably run 2hrs on a tank. The informal BOP adjustments in virtually all budget enduro (including WRL) mean having a fast car is more an exercise in pro level sand bagging than actually trying to go fast. Sand bagging in budget enduro is an art form that the best teams have mastered. This hypothetical 2hr per tank car needs to be as reliable as a hammer too. So a PD blower running a powercard with no intercooling at 10.5:1 AFR on pump gas is a non starter. An unmodified NA6 tank would not make an hour, let alone two.

Andrew and I have won T25 a few times, WERC championship and I've lost count of how many individual endurance races. All in NA/NB Miatas. IOW, our advice is based on significant personal experience at the pointy end of the field. No conjecture.

A blueprinted/forged 10.0:1, 2.0L NB head BP engine on pump gas and VICS manifold will easily make 160whp for about 200hrs but will need about 15g to run 2hrs on gas. Modified NB tank will hold about 14g lipped full (filler neck full). Need a fuel cell to hold 15g without filling the filler neck or taking 5 minutes to top it without spillage.

Fuel economy being the target however, the answer is that same engine in a very light Miata and detuned to about 135whp. Say 2100# w/ driver. That will be just about as fast but run another 15-20 minutes per stock NB tank. NB tank (bigger) can be retrofitted to an NA with some minor fab work.

It seems like a 150 whp (header, tune) VVT 1.8 is the easiest option so far, a little low on power for what we want but seems very "easy" to achieve. Will get a fun car that will provide plenty of track time and can work as a practice HPDE beater as well.
Cams and heads are a lot of points in chumpcar. Also can not do overbore.

One of the ecotec options and manage fuel is also an option. Waiting for the K24a4 to be a popular swap, hopefully that happens next year if someone makes a chumpcar approved kit.

Thanks

Can I be the bearer of bad news? Ok, cool.

If you want to win chump races, in all weather conditions, a Honda is the easy button.

Wait. Chump vs champ?

Don't hold your breath on the K swaps becoming legal in Champ Car unless you've got some fab skills. Even with the potential swap cost increase to $2500 for 2020, you can't get the basic parts you need from K Miata for less than $2700. That doesn't include the motor and other items you'll have to get to make the swap happen. With Champ Cars eyes on keeping it budget minded, its unlikely you'll see any standard class K swapped Miatas (EC maybe).

Yeah, everyone keeps saying champ car, but somehow I don't think they're referring to the open wheel racing series that died in '08.

Correct. They're referring to Champ Car, which is the series they're racing in.

Oh.

Apparently they changed the name from Chumpcar to Champcar in 2017.

Practically fresh as of this morning news!

:dunno: not something I've followed closely, and people commonly mixed them up even before the name change...

My comment was in reply to Ryan's, wouldn't have said anything otherwise.

No no, don't let it rub off on you! :rofl: <3 It was a joke.

That's simply not accurate.

As an absolute, sure.

But surely someone such as yourself, who is a huge minority even in your own class, recognizes the general statement as being true, right?

That isn't accurate either.

The two consistently fastest cars in the class over the last several years are Supercharged.(Well, Matt did try a turbo last year and hated it and went back to a larger blower)

So no, I'm not a huge minority in my own class.

I know this is MiataTurbo.Net.....but there are applications where a Supercharger is not only a workable option but a vastly superior one.

That wasn't brought into question. The fact that your car wins doesn't mean the laws of math and statistics no longer apply. :)

Would YOU recommend a FFS kit for the OP's needs?


[edit]
I now see your edit. You're still not understanding what "minority" means. This thread also isn't about autocross.

I have a very clear understanding of math and statics. I also understand physics.

And I am fully aware that it isn't about autocross and nor was my reply directly to the OP. It was to the tool who said the only racing series running blowers is the NHRA and everyone else runs turbos.

Which as I posted....is inaccurate.

So, you understand that even in your own class, you're a minority? You seem to be arguing against that. You can either argue against that, OR understand math/statistics, not both. :rofl:

That "tool," while he broke the first rule of the internet, which is speaking in absolutes, made a generally correct statement.


Your car is awesome, i'll be happy to state that each and every time you post on MT reminding us that you win with a supercharger. It's also an outlier and does not establish any norms.

Eric,

We know you take every negative opinion of superchargers personally. Please don't. The context of this thread is wheel to wheel road racing. Superchargers, both PD and centrifugal, have proven inferior to turbos there. Besides results, and as someone else put it out, statistics and physics are not on your side in that argument.

You all are getting very defensive here.

My comment was 100% directed at tool bag making an inaccurate statement.

LoL.

Just to clarify, i CAN introduce tongue, now? :giggle:

It's inaccurate only because it was presented as an absolute. In a vacuum, it's as inaccurate as your statement that you're not a huge minority in the same class. On a sliding scale, his statement is at least 90% correct. Yours is 100% wrong.

Fight misinformation with accurate information and everyone wins.

It's not inaccurate because of any other reason than because it is wrong.

The statement about me being in a "HUGE" minority in my "class" is also wrong. There are a ton of SC'ed cars in SSM nation wide as well as SC'ed cars in other classes. If you want to say "my class" is only cars that run Nationally at Nationals last year roughly 1/3rd of the drivers in the class were driving SC'ed cars.....NOT AT ALL a HUGE minority

You can continue to take the side of being wrong but the fact is, there are many more Motorsports worlds where Blowers are used (and win) other than the NHRA.

Which is what my original post was in reference to.....the post in question in every way inaccurate.

You all have a hard on for anything supercharger related to the point of defending something that is an absolute falsehood by trying to make a semantics debate to make it seem correct.

Again. YOU are getting very defensive trying to rationalize an absolute falsehood when you are apparently as misinformed as the person who made the comment originally.

This is really sophomoric bull shit.

Eric,

Seriously dude, no one really cares.

That is contra indicated by your continued responses

Guys, please.

Everyone's made their points clear.

We can get 2 hours on a slightly built 156whp BP4W at 10/10ths but we burn right at 14 gallons. Our series allows 115% fuel capacity.