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Thoughts about FFS kit for Enduro race car?

 
Old 05-14-2019, 01:25 PM
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Default Thoughts about FFS kit for Enduro race car?

Hi,

I have about $4000k to build a 160-170whp super reliable Miata. What do you think about the FFS kits?

I don't need 500whp, 160-170whp is about the limit for the car. The car needs to last for a complete race and I can only stop for fuel every 2nd hour.

The other option would be Ecotec swap or maybe a K swap. I can not run an intercooler without being bumped into a different class. Low boost EFR is attractive but concerned about stuff breaking.

Thanks
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Old 05-14-2019, 01:40 PM
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I wouldn't add forced induction for 160whp. If you have $4k and need a reliable 160whp, build an n/a BP.
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Old 05-14-2019, 01:50 PM
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Old 05-14-2019, 01:54 PM
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I dunno, for $4000k I'd probably go buy a Ferrari or several.

In all seriousness, best bet for reliability will definitely be N/A BP. 160whp isn't crazy.
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Old 05-14-2019, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by turbogrill View Post
Hi,

I have about $4000k to build a 160-170whp super reliable Miata. What do you think about the FFS kits?

I don't need 500whp, 160-170whp is about the limit for the car. The car needs to last for a complete race and I can only stop for fuel every 2nd hour.

The other option would be Ecotec swap or maybe a K swap. I can not run an intercooler without being bumped into a different class. Low boost EFR is attractive but concerned about stuff breaking.

Thanks
Don't buy anything from "For ****'s Sake".

Trade your '97 head (you didn't include that info so I had to look it up) for a better power '99-up head, squaretop or skunk intake, supertech double valvesprings, a megasquirt, and some decent cams. 160 shouldn't be a problem. And it will be much more reliable than the garbage you proposed putting on it. Seriously, FFS sucks ***.
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Old 05-14-2019, 03:00 PM
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Getting 2hrs per stint from a 160whp powerplant is not a feasible goal
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Originally Posted by codrus View Post
Basically I've come over to the camp of "If something is a reliability problem on the track, just ask Andrew and do what he says".
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Old 05-14-2019, 03:41 PM
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I think going K-swap with $4K in hand is also pretty wishful thinking. Building a car that will last for 2 hr. stints at full song will make $4K melt like butter under a blow torch.
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Old 05-14-2019, 03:45 PM
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I would do a low-boost turbo at 6 or 7 psi.

Only one racing series in the world runs superchargers for power gain and that is because the rule book says they have to. NHRA drag racing. Everyone else runs turbos.
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Old 05-14-2019, 06:09 PM
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Any option listed other than an NA BP engine build are going to blow the $4k budget very quickly. The only place you *might* get close is with an Ecotec swap, but if $4k is a hard limit then that probably won't work. You can talk to the guys at Adrenaline Racing about that.

Unless it's actually a $4000k budget?
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Old 05-14-2019, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by concealer404 View Post
I wouldn't add forced induction for 160whp. If you have $4k and need a reliable 160whp, build an n/a BP.
Head needs to be stock, from what I understand it's not easy to make 160whp with just cams, headers and a light "touchup"on the head. No overbore.
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Old 05-14-2019, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by sixshooter View Post
Don't buy anything from "For ****'s Sake".

Trade your '97 head (you didn't include that info so I had to look it up) for a better power '99-up head, squaretop or skunk intake, supertech double valvesprings, a megasquirt, and some decent cams. 160 shouldn't be a problem. And it will be much more reliable than the garbage you proposed putting on it. Seriously, FFS sucks ***.
Why does it suck ***? I understand that power numbers are not the highest, but power is not the goal here.
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Old 05-14-2019, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Savington View Post
Getting 2hrs per stint from a 160whp powerplant is not a feasible goal
Why not? The series has a cap that a stint can not be more than 2hours. And given the tiny fuel tank in a Miata it's hard to get more than 160whp.
Essentially you race for 2hours, then you fuel and swap drivers for 5min and then go out again.

Like 24hours of lemans but for normal people.
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Old 05-14-2019, 09:56 PM
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Originally Posted by tomrev View Post
I think going K-swap with $4K in hand is also pretty wishful thinking. Building a car that will last for 2 hr. stints at full song will make $4K melt like butter under a blow torch.
The K24A4 can be had for cheap, the kit is a pretty pricey but don't need all of it.

Originally Posted by Ken Hill View Post
I would do a low-boost turbo at 6 or 7 psi.

Only one racing series in the world runs superchargers for power gain and that is because the rule book says they have to. NHRA drag racing. Everyone else runs turbos.
Interesting! Even if you don't have an intercooler?

Originally Posted by turbofan View Post
Any option listed other than an NA BP engine build are going to blow the $4k budget very quickly. The only place you *might* get close is with an Ecotec swap, but if $4k is a hard limit then that probably won't work. You can talk to the guys at Adrenaline Racing about that.
Unless it's actually a $4000k budget?
It's not a hard limit at all, let's say it's $5500. But seems to be what other people swap for. Engines are cheap and the Ecotec kit is cheap as well. The SC kit is $5500.

(Apologize for not using the multi quote earlier)
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Old 05-14-2019, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by turbogrill View Post
Why not?
Because the car will consume more fuel in 2hrs than the fuel tank can hold.

If we're talking about Chump/ChampCar, I have won races in that series with a Miata, so I know what I speak of. Our car made 120whp at most, it would BARELY go 2hrs on a tank. You propose to make 33% more power without any hit to fuel economy. That is not feasible.
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Originally Posted by codrus View Post
Basically I've come over to the camp of "If something is a reliability problem on the track, just ask Andrew and do what he says".
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Old 05-14-2019, 10:56 PM
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One has to wonder, how competitive could a race team be, with a budget?
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Old 05-14-2019, 11:34 PM
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Any type of forced induction is definitely a bad idea. Even with Andrew's TSE kit, it's a **** ton of heat to control for 8 hours for all but the top teams, if at all. Andrew, feel free to correct me or go over what kind of budget would be required to do so, but I feel I'm fairly correct.

With a Megasquirt, semi-built VVT engine, RB header, 2.5" exhaust, a lot of dyno tuning, and 150hp, the team I race with, Race Invaders in Lucky Dog Racing League were A class, averaging around 1:32-34 at our last BP powered race at PIR, driving 10/10ths the whole time. We had a few mistakes.

Then we installed a V8 Roadster subframe, Ecotec miata swap kit, $600 LE5, and 3" exhaust and dyno'd at 185hp/185ftlbs. We've definitely had our bumps and bruises along the way, but after solving those it's been very reliable, and at the last PIR race we were averaging around 1:28-1:31 driving 8-9/10ths.

There are a few tricks you can do to increase the fuel capacity of the Miata to help with the 2 hour limit as well. At 185hp our team needs a few cautions and a little luck to truly make 2 hours at any given track. Typically strategy intervenes a little earlier.
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Old 05-14-2019, 11:47 PM
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Originally Posted by ryansmoneypit View Post
One has to wonder, how competitive could a race team be, with a budget?
You don't need crazy money. Few cars cost more than $40k, most cars are about $10k-$20k. But it's 90% skill 10% driver I would say, a good driver in a $2k shitbox will win over some bad driver in a cheaty $40k car.


Originally Posted by Savington View Post
Because the car will consume more fuel in 2hrs than the fuel tank can hold.

If we're talking about Chump/ChampCar, I have won races in that series with a Miata, so I know what I speak of. Our car made 120whp at most, it would BARELY go 2hrs on a tank. You propose to make 33% more power without any hit to fuel economy. That is not feasible.
Originally Posted by curly View Post
Any type of forced induction is definitely a bad idea. Even with Andrew's TSE kit, it's a **** ton of heat to control for 8 hours for all but the top teams, if at all. Andrew, feel free to correct me or go over what kind of budget would be required to do so, but I feel I'm fairly correct.

With a Megasquirt, semi-built VVT engine, RB header, 2.5" exhaust, a lot of dyno tuning, and 150hp, the team I race with, Race Invaders in Lucky Dog Racing League were A class, averaging around 1:32-34 at our last BP powered race at PIR, driving 10/10ths the whole time. We had a few mistakes.

Then we installed a V8 Roadster subframe, Ecotec miata swap kit, $600 LE5, and 3" exhaust and dyno'd at 185hp/185ftlbs. We've definitely had our bumps and bruises along the way, but after solving those it's been very reliable, and at the last PIR race we were averaging around 1:28-1:31 driving 8-9/10ths.

There are a few tricks you can do to increase the fuel capacity of the Miata to help with the 2 hour limit as well. At 185hp our team needs a few cautions and a little luck to truly make 2 hours at any given track. Typically strategy intervenes a little earlier.

Yes, chump.
Haven't race the Miata yet, doing research on a build. The fuel aspect seems to be very track dependent (COTA/Road America vs smaller tracks). So trying to figure out what makes sense, my previous car had 160hp and 22 gallons and could handle heat from a nuclear power plant.
So new to fuel issues

FI would be a simple way to reach Ecotec power goals, was hoping that low boost FI would be an option. Seems like most FI people cares about crazy power, of course **** break
The Ecotec was our initial goal but kits are on 6 month backlog and seems to take a while to sort out the car. All these FI kits seems to be a breeze to install in comparison.

Why the V8 roadster subframe?

thanks
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Old 05-15-2019, 12:22 AM
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You can use the stock subframe, but we preferred the exhaust routing options with the v8r subframe. Keep in mind you’ll wanna remake the mounts if you go this route. They hang in mid air with the v8 Miata frame, they rest on the stock subframe normally.

If if you haven’t raced the car yet, just race what you’ve got, upgrade power after suspension, brakes, fuel mods, driver/crew training, etc.
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Old 05-15-2019, 12:28 AM
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Originally Posted by curly View Post
Any type of forced induction is definitely a bad idea. Even with Andrew's TSE kit, it's a **** ton of heat to control for 8 hours for all but the top teams, if at all. Andrew, feel free to correct me or go over what kind of budget would be required to do so, but I feel I'm fairly correct.
At 160whp with basic good heat management practices (ceramic coatings, heat shields, wraps, hood vents, etc) it's totally doable indefinitely, 6/8/12/24hr races with proper prep and vetting are doable. I would take Rover and do a 4hr enduro tomorrow, for instance. If you want to be competitive, however, the issue is fuel consumption, and unless you redesign the cylinder head and add direct injection, you aren't going to get around the fact that turbos have a higher BSFC than N/A cars do.

I still maintain that 2hrs of green-flag, full-pace operation at anywhere approaching 160hp is impossible. At 125hp it might be doable on a consistent basis.
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Originally Posted by codrus View Post
Basically I've come over to the camp of "If something is a reliability problem on the track, just ask Andrew and do what he says".
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Old 05-15-2019, 06:49 AM
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For clarification sake, the original post was asking about the FFS kit and not forced induction in general which he is now discussing. I wouldn't **** on FFS if it was on fire.

With proper prep and shielding a Trackspeed, FM, or even MK Turbo kit could work at low boost for endurance racing. 160whp on your '97 head with many of these would only require about 5-7 psi which shouldn't be terrible for heat. It would be better with a '99-up head.

You're going to need to do some math and determine if the quicker lap times with the added power actually make you slower long term when you add in the additional fuel stops.
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