water to air intercoolers
 

Hey all, I stumbled across an old water to air intercooler setup that jackson racing used to sell, and I see that KenneBell used to offer a supercharger setup with a liquid to air intercooler for Miata's. But I don't see anyone using them or offering them anymore. Is there any reason why nobody uses them?

Jim

Cause air to air is cheap and efficient, and I will go as much as to say better.

water to air adds at least 4 moar failure point over air to air!

because old technology < new technology

In the case of superchargers, wouldn't they be more effective though? Not necessarily more efficient, I'm thinking in terms of throttled volume. One of the problems (if you want to call it that) with adding an air to air intercooler to a supercharged engine is increasing the throttled volume, hurting throttle response.

Just thinking out loud, and looking for some discussion, pro or con. I want to supercharge my '01 Miata, and want the benefits of intercooling, without detracting from the throttle response and low end torque the supercharger offers.

Jim

That's quite true, I assume your talking about the coolant lines, the pump is also a potential problem area.

Jim

I thought you didn't want the noise of a supercharger.
You can have both air to air and throttle response by installing dual throttle bodies. See this thread in the Supercharger Forum. https://www.miataturbo.net/supercharger-discussion-38/supercharger-dual-throttle-project-42026/

I was concerned about the noise of a supercharger, as I have never heard/driven a supercharged car, just knew what I had read on various forums. I decided I needed some first hand experience so I went to a local shop, the same one I had my stock dyno runs done at, I know the owner quite well and was able to take a couple of supercharged mustangs for a drive. Other than at wide open throttle, the superchargers were basically invisible. One of them used a liquid to air intercooler built into the intake manifold, the setup seemed to work quite well. It had noticably more power than the non-intercooled car (which is to be expected of course). The owner had a temp guage on the intercooler water supply and it never got more than 30 celcius, ambient was about 23 celcius.

Jim

OEM's, for example the late model ford F-150 Lightning SVT, are using liquid to air intercoolers on some of their supercharged models. I also found a number of aftermarket supercharger kit builders using Liquid/air intercoolers in their kits.

Again, just trying to get some discussion going on the pro's and con's, I am not trying to argue with anyone. It just seems, at least on the surface, to be a viable option.

The Lightning example sucks and is restrictive, I'm helping a buddy pull his out right now.

Interesting, what are you repacing it with, an air to air?

I always assumed that the air-water IC was used mostly for packaging. On a Miata an air-air IC is easy because of the front opening, not so much on an MR2.

Exactly. That's why we have an air to air intercooler on our Miata and an air to liquid on our MR2. The MR2 can't get any airflow in the engine compartment.

Matt. what is your opinion on the effectiveness of the water/air intercooler on your MR2? Is it turboed or supercharged?

the celica gt-four had an air/water

i ran an air/water on my miata. i hated both.

The biggest issue with a/w setups is the people don't realize how large of a heat exchanger they need to run.

With A/W you have to temperature deltas to deal with and you need to keep the water as close to ambient as possible to be efficient. Sadly most use similar sizes for the exchanger and intercooler which will result in warm water and poor efficiency.

I run a 26x7x2 heat exchanger and don't have any issues. I chose to do this to keep the throttle before the S/C and to have smallest throttled volume possible.

Hey, thanks for an informed answer. I am planning on an air to water IC for exactly that reason as well. I am planning on running a 6*6*3" core IC with a 2 quart coolant tank and the same size heat exchanger as you. Hopefully I will be happy with the results.

What size is your IC core? Did you have one custom made or did you use an off the shelf part? Do you happen to have a photo of your setup?

When I was considering running air/water (still kind of am... I still have the intercooler in the garage) I was planning to use my stock a/c condenser as a heat exchanger. It's thin (single row) but large, as big as the radiator. Thoughts on this?

I ran a 13.5x4x3.5 long flow IC. It was a generic universal unit with 2.5" in/out and 1/2 NPT bungs. Sat right in front of motor, just like crossover tube on typical hotside kit.

I don't have picture right now to post, but I can get one later.

I think that might work. Is 100x better than all the people using oil cooler cores, which are designed for high delta T's, and not for keeping water close to ambient.

Ya, the air-water cooler keeps the throttled volume down, but these days I my opinion its not a cost effective option + the added complication seems unattractive. This is due to the option of adequate ebay A-A's and the growing number of DTB setups which allow better than stock SC throttle response. I personally saw a DTB setup the other day (rather simple implementation) and the throttle response was unbelieveable. I have a stock MP62 (lowest throttle volume) and the DTB setup made me envious.

Either way you are adding complication and cost.

The fact remains tho that the MP62 only puts out a fixed volume per rotation. So if you have 1 or 2 TBs there will still be a delay in response with larger volume. 2 Helps mask the response issue and completely fixes all the idle/vacuum volume issues.

Compromise either way IMO. I went with A/W because they are stupid simple to install and reliable. Used a bosch pump from Lightning/Cobra, some radiator hose and hard lines, IC, and heat exchanger. Basically did it the way Ford does it OEM. Works for them and works for me.

I don't know that I can agree about the cost/complication. I am purchasing my intercooler from Spearco (the only part I'm still waiting on), the coolant tank, pump, fittings, hose, and heat exchanger I bought on Ebay. My total cost is under $600. I figure it will take about an hour to get it installed. My IC will be inline with the crossover pipe, so I need two 90* elbows and 4 pieces of silicone hose. I've spent about 2 hours installing my heat exchanger and running the coolant lines, installing the tank and pump and wiring the pump. All in all pretty simple.

Is that one of the IC's on Ebay? I have been eyeballing those, price is right. You seem to be happy with it, I assume you think it's doing an adequate job? How much boost are you running?

Sounds like same routing as me. Super simple, easy, and cheap. Easy to remove to work on other parts also with all the clamps within easy reach.

You could do an a-a setup cheaper with ebay ic if you fabbed your own ic pipes. I will give him that, but the a-a kits are >2x what I have into my setup.

If I wasn't running a PD S/C I would run an a-a setup and it would be simpler.

I totally agree, if I was running a turbo I would definately use A/A.

Frozenboost IC

9psi I think is what the pulley setup is. Runs cool all the time. By my thermo calculations it still has alot of headroom.

If you are completing the setup for under $600 than by all means go the water-air route because it has its benefits as stated. I was thinking it was going to be in the neigbourhood of $1000 based on the old Jackson Racing unit. That's my may problem with intercooler kits for the MP62 (TDR same price). The DIY approach is always more beneficial (plus you get to tinker) and I hope that you report the results (IAT's is possible) so that there is more data (more current data) to differentiate the two options.

It seems I would be going A/W for a totally different reason than any of you guys... large reservoir tank, full of ice... ya know, a drag race setup that will still function on the street without the ice. 400whp with ice in the tank would be neat.

Then again I could just keep my A/A and add meth injection and it'd probably work out the same.

Do both. I do. I have one nozzle pre s/c and one in the dummy TB.

[QUOTE=Staffah;572830]If you are completing the setup for under $600 than by all means go the water-air route because it has its benefits as stated. I was thinking it was going to be in the neigbourhood of $1000 based on the old Jackson Racing unit. That's my may problem with intercooler kits for the MP62 (TDR same price). The DIY approach is always more beneficial (plus you get to tinker) and I hope that you report the results (IAT's is possible) so that there is more data (more current data) to differentiate the two options.[/QUOTE

Thanks to Ebay, the DIY option is very doable for a reasonable cost. I will post up data when I have some. It will be awhile yet, I'm still waiting on the IC, a new nose pulley and a few little odds and ends, I was hoping to be done by the end of May, we'll see.

Sounds good jimj64. I am pretty much in the same boat right now waiting on my A-A IC from Cxracing. I am going the over-the-top route and hopefully I will remember to document the process. It would be good to give us supercharger guys results for more than DIY option.

i missed the part where this thread was in the SC section

...whoops

Even for turbo, though, I think water-air can make sense. A lot of turbo guys are down on it, and that's too bad. A properly designed water-air has a lot going for it on a turbo Miata. It just seems that not many have been well thought out / implemented.

Just thought I'd add pictures of my BSP A/W intercooler. Might help out the guys trying to put together a similar setup.

It is a spearco A/W intercooler. Jabsco Cyclone pump circulating water through a generic oil cooler, with the radiator overflow tank as the reservoir.

Attachment 196654

It is a spearco A/W intercooler.
Attachment 196655

Tight fit, choose your fans wisely.
Attachment 196656

I recently redid the steel brackets, which were heavy and nasty with some rust. Fabbed some new ones up using aluminum.
Attachment 196657

I have exactly that setup lying in my garage.

The set contains.
1. spearco A/W intercooler
2. New smaller fan
3. Radiator made by Long Canada
4. Coolant pump
5. Watertank
6. Mounting material

Would sell under 600 $ including shipping from germany.
Just PM me if your interested.

http://s5.directupload.net/images/100605/wjknkpwq.jpg

I leaning on the same solution.

I've got a JR SC since 2006, running great but can't squeeze more power without IC first.

I'm considering the Jackson Racing Air/Water Inter-cooler system...
http://www.moss-europe.co.uk/Graphic...ge/999-651.jpg

Or a Spearco based DIY kit

Or these from chargecooler (not bad...)

I have the jackson racing water to air intercooler on the M45, and it's not too great. the air routing is shorter than track dog racing intercooler, but the max hp i can get is alot less than what they can do with the front mount... I wonder if the middle pipe is more restrictive

beside, i think jackson stopped making thsoe intercooler.

Making them for sure, but Moss still got some in stock (at least in UK)

After few days of research and feedback from users:
the heat exchanger in that kit is too small, one needs to replace it with a bigger one anyway.

So, if I'll go with W/A -and I say 'if' - I'll DIY assembling:
1. A PWR Chargecooler (they are the best in terms of built and flow (both water and air). Either the 290mm or the 350mm, 100mm diam. will fit.
2. A decent size heat exchanger (there are tons around, so easy to find and cheap)
3. A good pump though, and I'll fit it with a failure warning circuit.
4. Some silicon elbows and good pipes.

Plan B: Il go A/A with a DTB :D

Personally, depends on what you want to do.... you can dual TB, and A/W as well....

If you are on the track, or think heat soak of the a/w will be a problem, do option b). I haven't had any issue with option b) on the track, or anywhere else for that matter. <G>

Dave,

Would anyone have any suggestions for a good heat exchanger? Was hoping to find something specifically designed for this, instead of a generic oil cooler. Have any of you added a dedicated fan to your heat exchanger?

Here's a terrible pic of my present heat exchanger :P

Attachment 193516

This all seems like a lot of work when the FMIC seems to work for most.

I think it would me less "terrible" if you actually mounted it on the ground.

Unfortunately for an M45 setup, throttled volume is a very real issue. I've driven similar cars with the A/A IC, and there is a noticeable difference for this particular application. For the meantime' I'd like to try to optimize this setup. I do appreciate the advice though :hustler:

Maybe I'll work on removing the band aids too :drool:

Why not have any sort of intercooler and just spray a lot of water, like Magna does?

Seems like this would give you throttle response, less cost, etc.

There isn't really anything wrong with using an oil cooler.

rads and oil coolers are all designed to do the same thing: increase the surface area to promote heat flow out of the liquid. Just find something with a lot of fins and the size you want that doesn't block air flow to you radiator much.

you know you can always use a radiator from a smaller car, a good capacity and a the ability to buffer and shift the heat is the real key to getting an A/W system to work well

I use the cooling rad from a small FIAT 500 (the core is 450mm x 285mm x 34mm) and it works an absolute treat with my PWR barrel. My car doesn't have aircon so I have the the second fan hooked up to a thermostatic controller in the charge cooler system, on the move this is pretty pointless but it does stop the system heat soaking in traffic

I also actually have a dual TB set up and WI as well ;-)

Thanks for the advice! Can I ask what temps you guys are seeing pre/post IC? With and without water injection?

One of the guys i know in the UK with a similar set up to mine with an overspun M45 was seeing about 42 degs on tick-over on his Adaptronic in the garage and around 41 degs driving around off boost and reached a maximum of 62degs at 12psi WOT, post cooler that was with no water injection and a pretty warm outside temp of 29 degs

I have a M45 with water to air intercooler. I am planning to ditch the water to air system and use just water injection.

do u think i needed both or just the water system is fine?

I didnt see how old this thread was but here we go! (EDIT: I see that this was back in march!! my bad... oh well)

liquid to air isn't old technology! they are rather a better solution to the affets of cooling! why is it that most vehicles today are liquid cooled!
liquid (water specifically) has a far greater property than air. That property is that it can absorb more energy (in the form of heat) from what it surrounds.
The issue with L/A intercoolers is that you need air to then cool the liquid!!
this seems tough to do right???

Yes it is! there is planning that needs to be obtained and practiced.
factors such as cores, heat exchangers, the volume of liquid in the system, and several other things.

Cores: tend to be small which they can be because water is that good at extracting the heat, they are also rather restrictive. Look at the cores before you decide on what one you want. you do want a semi restrictive one as this will help with the cooling to an extent, but you dont want an L/A intercooler that is just a sealed air to air core. you will want more water passages that are small where you can have more passages per inch (ie like a radiator, but not) lots of fins where the air flows and smaller water passages that have fins as well.

heat exchangers: like a radiator surface area is everything a 2'' thick core is plenty for most aplications, and for the miata it is all you really want blocking the nose of the car. A crossflow is a good heat exchanger as they usually allow for more surface area. you can buy duel pass cross flows that fit in the NB bumper quite well, as im sure it will fit the NA's as well!
for DD's or street preped cars you have the issue of traffic! in the country all is well but in a more populated area there is a potential for heat soak.
Proper use of fans is needed (and for the miata in general the fan(s) need to be thin!) the longer the radiator the harder it is to get a fan to be productive in 1) cooling the radiator 2) not blocking too much airflow through the heat exchanger when in motion (this is present in even a shorter 1 fan set up)

Volume: this is a big part of the liquid to airs.
too little and you have a better chance for heat soak and that just kills performance! too much and you have extra weight added to the car, and lets face it we have miatas, weight is our enemy!
to increase volume you can route a bunch of hoses all over the place, but that is absurd!! so a resivoir is the next thought and that works great, except most people put them under the hood of the car....where it is hot!

spray some washer fluid on your hands after you go for a good hard drive!. and that is in a plastic bottle what about metal!! ya that isn't a logical option, keeping a metal one under the hood! there is a place to put a bottle/resivoir on nb's and na's that is logical, that space is where the washer resivoir sits in that pic of the BRG.

PUMP: just use the one from the cobras as they are meant to be used in L/A setups (its a bosch unit)

and unlike air to airs you can add ice to these bewteen/during auto x or drag runs... or if some kid is talking shit at a gas station throw some ice in an do a quick pull!...and like air to airs you can use a spray bar and use water's evaporative nature to take some heat with it for better cooling. this sprayer can be manually controlled or by utilizing a WOT switch.

all in all they are far more complicated than A/A's but are/can be far better when assembled by a compitent person.
Cost can be an issue, but have you seen the cost of a "good" A/A intercooler. they can be similar in price when said and done. L/A's aren't too hard to install either, but its going to take longer than an hour or two.

Ohh BTW I have a PWR for sale! it came off of my mazdaspeed.
before i went to l/a I had an ebay intercooler! they are junk!!!! horrible flow both in the core, and too flat for the ambient air to really flow through!

The air-water intercooler is only as good as its weakest link. I had one on my m45 supercharged 97 and above all, the most important element is the efficiency of the heat exchanger. Adding extra water reserve is good, water wetter, and a nice long barrel intercooler, but if you skimp on the heat exchanger you'll eventually heat-soak, especially if the car is ran on the track. I guess that really isn't an issue on the street though.

The 03-04 Cobra's have an air-water intercooler system, and a closed off coolant system for the intercooler too. Ever seen how big that heat exchanger is? it's pretty damn wide... Not the little bitty thing that Jackson Racing offered.

Hmmm... The part about the power air to air intercooler on the mazdaspeed got my attention? Would it be to my benefit to run a 4x6 barrel intercooler prior to the throttle body or maybe replace the FM intake tube that leads to the intercooler? Run my 27x5.5x2.5 air to air intercooler and a 4x6 air to water, I woulder what sorta difference it would make.

http://hosting11.imagecross.com/imag...48101_0633.JPGImage Hosting

I think it would be awesome to be able to drop some ice in a reservoir and pick up ponies.

with a good system you will have way lower intake temps than an air to air kit...even if the water is warmer than ambient air what feels colder.. 50* air
of 65* water.. even though the water is warmer it still feels colder because it absorbs the heat from your body quicker!... a few key things to a good liquid to air kit.

Capacity-
the more your system can hold the more it will take to heat soak it!... the easiest way to get more capaciy is to have a reservoir (that also can use ice is a huge bonus)... A spot mounted in the trunk with long running lines is also going to increase capacity!

The down sides to this is the fact that liquid weighs a fair amount! and for the miata weight is the one thing we dont try to increase! So luckily this can be compensated with a nice heat exchanger....
core -
liquid to air intercoolers are known to be restrictive, but this also helps with cooling! and seeing as though they are ususally mounted in the most direct way to the throttle body you dont really notice it!
heat exchanger-
a nice heat exchanger will keep the system to as close to ambient as possible! Some of the nicest I have seen are a dual pass crossflow.. this will elongate how long the liquid stays in the exchanger...(theoretically)
Also to maximize efficency you could set up a WOT sprayer to spray the heat exchanger to optimize cooling. under hard pulls! As the water evaporates from the exchanger the energy (heat) dissapates with it (like getting out of a shower and stepping in front of a fan!) ..speeking of fan in stop and go traffic you would also need one of these!

The kits are usually more of a task to install and do right, but when done right it is hard beat!...

this was done on a droid... and i couldnt see what I was typing so sorry for any errors as Im sure there are a few