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water to air intercoolers

 
Old 04-20-2010, 10:13 PM
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Default water to air intercoolers

Hey all, I stumbled across an old water to air intercooler setup that jackson racing used to sell, and I see that KenneBell used to offer a supercharger setup with a liquid to air intercooler for Miata's. But I don't see anyone using them or offering them anymore. Is there any reason why nobody uses them?

Jim
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Old 04-20-2010, 10:57 PM
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Cause air to air is cheap and efficient, and I will go as much as to say better.
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Old 04-20-2010, 10:59 PM
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water to air adds at least 4 moar failure point over air to air!
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Old 04-20-2010, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by jimj64 View Post
Hey all, I stumbled across an old water to air intercooler setup that jackson racing used to sell, and I see that KenneBell used to offer a supercharger setup with a liquid to air intercooler for Miata's. But I don't see anyone using them or offering them anymore. Is there any reason why nobody uses them?

Jim
because old technology < new technology
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Old 04-21-2010, 12:34 AM
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In the case of superchargers, wouldn't they be more effective though? Not necessarily more efficient, I'm thinking in terms of throttled volume. One of the problems (if you want to call it that) with adding an air to air intercooler to a supercharged engine is increasing the throttled volume, hurting throttle response.

Just thinking out loud, and looking for some discussion, pro or con. I want to supercharge my '01 Miata, and want the benefits of intercooling, without detracting from the throttle response and low end torque the supercharger offers.

Jim
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Old 04-21-2010, 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by WonTon View Post
water to air adds at least 4 moar failure point over air to air!
That's quite true, I assume your talking about the coolant lines, the pump is also a potential problem area.

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Old 04-21-2010, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by jimj64 View Post
In the case of superchargers, wouldn't they be more effective though? Not necessarily more efficient, I'm thinking in terms of throttled volume. One of the problems (if you want to call it that) with adding an air to air intercooler to a supercharged engine is increasing the throttled volume, hurting throttle response.

Just thinking out loud, and looking for some discussion, pro or con. I want to supercharge my '01 Miata, and want the benefits of intercooling, without detracting from the throttle response and low end torque the supercharger offers.

Jim
I thought you didn't want the noise of a supercharger.
You can have both air to air and throttle response by installing dual throttle bodies. See this thread in the Supercharger Forum. https://www.miataturbo.net/supercharger-discussion-38/supercharger-dual-throttle-project-42026/

Last edited by BarbyCar; 04-21-2010 at 10:04 AM.
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Old 04-21-2010, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by BarbyCar View Post
I thought you didn't want the noise of a supercharger.
You can have both air to air and throttle response by installing dual throttle bodies. See this thread in the Supercharger Forum. https://www.miataturbo.net/showthread.php?t=42026
I was concerned about the noise of a supercharger, as I have never heard/driven a supercharged car, just knew what I had read on various forums. I decided I needed some first hand experience so I went to a local shop, the same one I had my stock dyno runs done at, I know the owner quite well and was able to take a couple of supercharged mustangs for a drive. Other than at wide open throttle, the superchargers were basically invisible. One of them used a liquid to air intercooler built into the intake manifold, the setup seemed to work quite well. It had noticably more power than the non-intercooled car (which is to be expected of course). The owner had a temp guage on the intercooler water supply and it never got more than 30 celcius, ambient was about 23 celcius.

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Old 04-21-2010, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
because old technology < new technology
OEM's, for example the late model ford F-150 Lightning SVT, are using liquid to air intercoolers on some of their supercharged models. I also found a number of aftermarket supercharger kit builders using Liquid/air intercoolers in their kits.

Again, just trying to get some discussion going on the pro's and con's, I am not trying to argue with anyone. It just seems, at least on the surface, to be a viable option.
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Old 04-21-2010, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by jimj64 View Post
OEM's, for example the late model ford F-150 Lightning SVT, are using liquid to air intercoolers on some of their supercharged models. I also found a number of aftermarket supercharger kit builders using Liquid/air intercoolers in their kits.

Again, just trying to get some discussion going on the pro's and con's, I am not trying to argue with anyone. It just seems, at least on the surface, to be a viable option.
The Lightning example sucks and is restrictive, I'm helping a buddy pull his out right now.
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Old 04-21-2010, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by gospeed81 View Post
The Lightning example sucks and is restrictive, I'm helping a buddy pull his out right now.
Interesting, what are you repacing it with, an air to air?
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Old 04-21-2010, 01:02 PM
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I always assumed that the air-water IC was used mostly for packaging. On a Miata an air-air IC is easy because of the front opening, not so much on an MR2.
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Old 04-21-2010, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by jayc72 View Post
I always assumed that the air-water IC was used mostly for packaging. On a Miata an air-air IC is easy because of the front opening, not so much on an MR2.
Exactly. That's why we have an air to air intercooler on our Miata and an air to liquid on our MR2. The MR2 can't get any airflow in the engine compartment.
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Old 04-21-2010, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Matt Cramer View Post
Exactly. That's why we have an air to air intercooler on our Miata and an air to liquid on our MR2. The MR2 can't get any airflow in the engine compartment.
Matt. what is your opinion on the effectiveness of the water/air intercooler on your MR2? Is it turboed or supercharged?
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Old 04-21-2010, 09:21 PM
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the celica gt-four had an air/water

i ran an air/water on my miata. i hated both.
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Old 05-13-2010, 11:02 PM
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The biggest issue with a/w setups is the people don't realize how large of a heat exchanger they need to run.

With A/W you have to temperature deltas to deal with and you need to keep the water as close to ambient as possible to be efficient. Sadly most use similar sizes for the exchanger and intercooler which will result in warm water and poor efficiency.

I run a 26x7x2 heat exchanger and don't have any issues. I chose to do this to keep the throttle before the S/C and to have smallest throttled volume possible.
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Old 05-14-2010, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by wnwright View Post
The biggest issue with a/w setups is the people don't realize how large of a heat exchanger they need to run.

With A/W you have to temperature deltas to deal with and you need to keep the water as close to ambient as possible to be efficient. Sadly most use similar sizes for the exchanger and intercooler which will result in warm water and poor efficiency.

I run a 26x7x2 heat exchanger and don't have any issues. I chose to do this to keep the throttle before the S/C and to have smallest throttled volume possible.
Hey, thanks for an informed answer. I am planning on an air to water IC for exactly that reason as well. I am planning on running a 6*6*3" core IC with a 2 quart coolant tank and the same size heat exchanger as you. Hopefully I will be happy with the results.

What size is your IC core? Did you have one custom made or did you use an off the shelf part? Do you happen to have a photo of your setup?
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Old 05-14-2010, 09:51 AM
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When I was considering running air/water (still kind of am... I still have the intercooler in the garage) I was planning to use my stock a/c condenser as a heat exchanger. It's thin (single row) but large, as big as the radiator. Thoughts on this?
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Old 05-14-2010, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by jimj64 View Post
Hey, thanks for an informed answer. I am planning on an air to water IC for exactly that reason as well. I am planning on running a 6*6*3" core IC with a 2 quart coolant tank and the same size heat exchanger as you. Hopefully I will be happy with the results.

What size is your IC core? Did you have one custom made or did you use an off the shelf part? Do you happen to have a photo of your setup?
I ran a 13.5x4x3.5 long flow IC. It was a generic universal unit with 2.5" in/out and 1/2 NPT bungs. Sat right in front of motor, just like crossover tube on typical hotside kit.

I don't have picture right now to post, but I can get one later.
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Old 05-14-2010, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by therieldeal View Post
When I was considering running air/water (still kind of am... I still have the intercooler in the garage) I was planning to use my stock a/c condenser as a heat exchanger. It's thin (single row) but large, as big as the radiator. Thoughts on this?
I think that might work. Is 100x better than all the people using oil cooler cores, which are designed for high delta T's, and not for keeping water close to ambient.
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