Do you have the fuel to bump your rev limit? If you have the valvetrain and block build I think you do, you should be fine going to 8k. That'll get you to 65mph anyway, which will be a nice bump.

FWIW, my data shows that Sunday's course I only got over 55mph into the finish, and even then was basically doing 60ish through the finish lights. Saturday says the same thing. 55mph peak until the finish lights, which show at around 60-63ish depending on where the lights were exactly.

How do supercharger service intervals compare to a turbo?

I'd also like to note that even with like engine management, turbo cars have always produced more favorable results in my experience.

I don't know much about really long term service stuff. Change a few ounces of oil once in a while. In theory eventually bearings wear out and it needs rebuilding for a few hundred bucks, but I don't know the details about when that happens...

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...1&d=1341281538


Hmm

For a road course, I'd take Bob's curve over mine any day of the week. For autox, I wouldn't. Autox is all about making the most of a series of 50 foot long acceleration zones, which are a fraction of a second each.

I used to have a street modified Alltrac with this:
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1341282457

Sure makes a lot of torque. There were also many autocrosses where I _never hit full spool a single time_. Just because it says I make almost 400 ft/lbs at the wheels at 5000 RPMs doesn't mean that I ever actually saw that number hit the pavement. It was also fantastic on a track, with almost no lag (never below 4000 RPMs on a road course.)

When I exit a corner at 2800 RPMs and hit the gas, I have over 200 ft/lbs at the wheels, right then. If I stay floored for another 2 seconds, Bob's torque will catch up and hugely pass me. Look at a course like this, which was yesterday's NT course:

2012 Packwood National Tour Sunday SSM - YouTube

And count how many times I was floored for more than 1 second at a time but not traction limited (you'll hear it burbling when the traction control is limiting my power.) Every time I touch the gas that's not on your list, I'm gaining ground on Bob. Every one you count, he's started making ground on me, and if he stays floored for enough longer than that, he can make up the deficit he lost in the first second where I was accelerating faster.

Bob designed his car to be first and foremost a track lapper, and it's really good at that. As he's told me a dozen times, the car is a compromise car for autox.

Yea I only hit rev limit at the finish thanks to the Karen Babb course design. The thing is my torque falls off so dramatically at high rpm it almost feels like a rev limiter before you actually get there.

I think David he is right. We both got beat by a naturally aspirated Miata CSP and DP and the DP minimum weight is similar or more than us depending on displacement and wheel width the fast ones were running 10” wheels. Every time I heard David’s traction control hitting I knew I was losing time. In second gear even with 275 Hoosiers I cannot really use full throttle in a straight line especially since I believe I had too much rear camber. My car works better on a track and I can’t think of a track right now where I go lower than third gear for any corner.
Bob

Keep in mind DP's running Avon slicks (night and day over these DOT things we have to run, according to Jim and Keith,) and Jim Daniels' 1.6 Miata's min weight is MUCH lower than us. Only the NC is as heavy as us, and he gets hugely better suspension geometry, a much better chassis, and wider wheels/slicks than we do as well. DP definitely outhandles the crap out of us, we only get them on power. I'm not surprised at all that DP creamed us on that course. :)

Also, tangentially, you don't even bother downshifting to 2nd in 3a? :)

Jim has 1.8l running 15" Avons. Kieth had 1.6L 13" Avons. Ron had NC running 16" Hoosier. I know Rons minimum weight is over 2100 lbs.

Nope leve it in third. I run out of second coming out of 3b before I even get to track out. Second is kind of pointless as I get a better run through 4 up to 5 by staying in third. I've run 1:32.5 at Pacific on 225 NT-01's nearing 10 seconds under spec miata records.

Bob

Every turbo car I've tuned has a pretty manly driver who I'd like to hang out with.

Every supercharged car I've tuned had a driver who tried to barter bizzare sexual experiences or has a sex-swing in the trunk AND a tub of lube.

Peng-Robinson equation of state.

well fuсk, a torque plot I can't beat.

I like blowers. I love the whine, I love the instant power, I love way they feel. I hate the amount of work it normally takes to make silly amounts of power with them. I used to run this.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1341441273

Which was amazing until you realized it was only on 205 star specs, and would just roast the inside from tire if you even considered gently caressing the gas pedal mid corner. It was also on a car with a rear suspension thats main purpose was to keep the rear bumper off the ground and provide enough wheels to classify it as a car and not a motorcycle. I went into STR with the tired miata on worn out rs3s with a big front bar and otherwise stock and placed higher in pax than I had the whole previous year with that car. Not to mention that was the most power I was going to make on that car without head work, cams, and better internals with a compression bump from 9.5 to the planned 11.4. So glad I crashed that thing and saved a boat load of money.

But more back to this thread. I went to the m.net SC section and it made me want to kick puppies. The amount of stupid in there was painful, ------- Christ, rising rate regulators and boost-a-spark boxes are not acceptable engine management solutions .

Yeah, but the same problem exists with turbos. People use the Voodoo box like it's going out of style, and similar fuel/spark bandaids to attempt to not blow up their motors. In the age of 700$ functional engine management, those just make me sad...

Thats a good point. And it also seems that the 5th injector is making a comeback, what is this, the 90's?

I think the 5th injector has its uses (charge cooling), but not as people usually use them (bandaid injector to fix not having an EMS).

Theres a difference between running a 5th injector and running a 7 gph water/meth nozzle. Thats another thing that influenced my decision to choose the turbo for my car's movement to ssm, meth injection not being allowed in solo. Cause let me tell you, running an 14 gph nozzle with 50/50 water to meth would make a 2 litre blower make some serious power at 20something psi on a bp without doing silly amounts of head work (e85 included).

I agree -- the disallowing of meth injection in solo is infuriating.

I'm considering trying doing an alternate version of my current build (but using the newer W100AX) on a 1.6 motor, non-intercooled, with using an E85 5th injector for most of the cooling, or potentially with some water as well (or entirely instead of the 5th injector).

I'd run straight water pre-blower, and then e98/85 in just another water/meth and consider doing e98/85 in the normal fuel injectors but give them as much runner distance to the head as possible. Tuning would be a complete nightmare, but that would get you the best charge cooling. And e98 would be preferable over e85, course straight meth for fueling would be even better but obviously not allowed.

so a question for you gentlemen and something ive been thinking a whole lot myself.

so it seems that most everyone here is for the turbo charger and a few others defend the super charger but here is my situation that ive been thinking alot about recently:

so i want a forced induction system on my miata (1990) i love the handling of the car but when you are getting past by minivans, its time for more power so recently i have found the greatest road known to man :p i am not a dragster kind of guy, i love turns, and i love corners. and my favorite past time is to take my miata to the mountain roads near my home and just take those corners as fast as possible. upon driving this amazing road i have found it dawned on me... if i was to have a turbo charger, being a guy of limited driving skill, i dont think i would be able to handle the power, sorry, the sudden onset of power that the turbo would create. because turbo's work off of the exhaust gases as we know, there is a certain amount of lag before a turbo spins fast enough to create positive displacement, know no matter how quick or low in the rpm range this response happens, it is still there, which means when power sets in, it surges in, and if i am taking a corner, the last thing i need is a surge of power to offset the balance of the car.

so in my opinion, i think most people who purchase a super charger are looking for what im looking for, power that is instant, and more important, linear. we may not be worried about overall power (at least in my opinion) but rather the knowledge that my power isn't going to be all over the place when i mash the gas.


well sorry for the speech i just wanted to give that point of view, thanks for listening

Run a 2554 then... Oh and welcome to the forum.

I will say this. If I ever stumble across a cheap Protege with a BP, I'm absolutely looking for a cheap Jackson Racing supercharger to throw on it. That'd be a fun daily.

I seriously just LOL'd at my screen. Everything in here is just plain wrong and ignorant. Trust me, I've been there. I've had both, and now I have the superior setup. The turbo.

But but but predictable brah :facepalm: Nah jokes aside the 2554 is as predictable as you can get... maybe if you want to go more go with a 22 or some kind but either way you wont be getting kicked in the ass by it like you would at 4k rpm with a 2860 or something. Benefit is if you still cant control it you can lower the boost easily.

So should I say something about a v8 and make this thread even more of a s---show?
:)

V8's are cool if you got the dough to sling and the rubber to make turns useful.

You seem like you're serious, so I'll be serious with you: everything you just said is wrong for the most part. part throttle boost onset isn't some crazy rush of torque that would send you off a cliff. You should actually drive a car with a turbo before making assumptions like that and listening to idiotic ramblings of m.net wine and cheezer pansies.

I have the feeling this dude made an account specifically only to post his rather wrong comment. Hopefully he'll stick around and learn something.

We drove like crap on Saturday and had one minor mechanical glitch at Peru. But my co driver was able to be the fastest car in the SSM field at the peru tour on Sunday. That was with Mike "Jr" Johnson, Carter Thompson, Brian Johns and Dan Chadwick there. I think we might be on to something with this whole "Miata has a chance in SSM" thing.
Here is my fastest run from Sunday. The camera died before Randall's

Spoken like a man who has never driven a car with forced induction.

He kind of has some points, with poorly setup cars. I've auto-x'ed two turbo cars that seem to follow the stereotype the op is having; one was an evo with a 20g and the other was a 1g dsm with a sleeper 16g and a messed up waste gate actuator. Both hit like a ton of bricks at 4k rpm, both were dog miata slow till the boost hit all at once. Both were either poorly setup and/or were having issues. Neither would have been an issue if their gearing worked better for the course that day. Drove the evo on a course where I was topping out the miata at 7660 rpm in 1st, and the dsm would do like 80 something in 2nd. Well setup turbo cars dont have issues like that until you get to real track monster or dyno queen setups.

Alright, you seem to think like there is the turbo master race and the SC peasants. Fine with me (as a PC gamer I am part of the PC Master Race and therefore look down on the dirty console peasants). Here is my question.

My previous car was a '02 Audi A6 with the 2.7 Bi-turbo v6 (same one as the S4). That thing lagged like a ----------er. You didn't have *anything* before 3500rpm.

Because of this, I was going to go with an FFS since I had an Eaton on my old Grand Prix GTP that I had before the Audi, and I loved that car.

But if you guys think I could get the same responsiveness and power out of a turbo, I am all ears. Where is the best place to get started reading about them (besides this thread obviously)?

Typically people with this opinion have not ridden or driven a car like mine.

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?s...type=1&theater

On a 1.8 with the only internal upgrade being rods, I'd be impressed to see a turbo set up perform better in an autocross. Yes, a turbo is superior in drag racing and road racing, but there IS a reason to supercharge a miata. Linear boost means linear power. Linear power means controlable power. Controlable power means faster times.

I went conservative with the 10% increase to the dynojet numbers. Many would say 15%. You can see the power - especially the torque - starts to fall off. We had a little belt slippage which is now corrected, but I believe most of the problem is cams. A little more static compression and some cams should do wonders.

Link to facebook image no worky. Host it somewhere or attach it to the post.

fixed

still broken.

Yup.

It would work if you had a turbo :party:

lololol

Naw gawgg, its just boost laggin.

http://i1340.photobucket.com/albums/...ps9c7d72b2.jpg

Let's try this.

Whats the setup? What supercharger?

basic setup is in my signature. almost stock 1.8, 1.2 lysholm water cooled, big injectors, E85, megasquirt.

Output curve isnt very linear, more like exponential. This is a dyno graph that give linear output.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1349058375

The other contributor to the power drop off is prob exhaust as well. When it was a turbo car, we got by with a glasspack and it was well under db limits. We had to throw a basic dual chamber muffle tank on the back quickly to be ready for nationals after going to the charger. Way too loud with just the glasspack. THat's an area of attention over the winter as well.

Forgot to mention in the basic set up - ebay chinese header. :)

lol I love how you totally make it sound like a "basic" setup.

Oh, its only a near stock (but built) bottom end, 99 head, larger than most supercharger, 1000cc injectors, e85, etc......

Nothing special.

For the money you spent a similarly equipped turbo car would rape your face. In anything but auto-x. Which is what pretty much everyone in this thread has said dozens of times: no one is arguing that for auto-x a big 'ol sc is good.
But for everything else....well, you know the rest.

Have you looked into the Borg Warner EFR's? You can have your cake and eat it too.

And push 300 hp at 35psi like a bauce :D

I'll never do turbo for the street again after having fun with a supercharger. Planting the throttle at 2500 RPMs and having 250 ft/lbs at the wheels is fun. For peak numbers, sure, have a turbo. For actually having fun accelerating hard between 25 and 40mph, good luck on a turbo.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1349062821
Show us a dyno with 250wtq at 2500RPM.

I also see you're running this dog-shit:
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1349062729
lol

There's a difference between a "basic" set up ane what I meant meaning that the basics of my set up are thus.... leaving out the details - just the basics.

Besides, the engine itself is pretty basic. The "99 head" is a stock head. The bottom end is not built in my opinion with "only" rods. Stock crank, stock pan, stock pickup, stock bearings, stock pistons, stock wrist pins, stock rings, stock bore, stock stroke, stock stock stock.

....and money? less than $2000. used lysholm charger. home fabbed piping. home fabbed manifold. home fabbed pully. cheap rca low imp injectors. etc....

Only dynoed at around 200wtq at 2500RPM right now, and this was before I cleaned up some of the fueling down low. Bigger SC soon and a boost bump, should be closer to 250. Either way, since you're attacking shocks you don't understand, you're obviously just trolling, so I won't bother answering further than this.

show me a TURBO dyno with 250lb-ft at 2500rpm that's usable power other than with slicks on a dragstrip.

Those are the FatCat shocks from my car. He's just trolling random stuff since he's a standard supercharger hater. It hurts his turbopeen. It's a little frustrating that he's a moderator and still trolling this poorly.

Not every post in this thread is about you.

So what you're saying is "I don't have a dyno that shows 250wtq@2500rpm". My point exactly.
It's about perspective.
I'm turboless these days and loving it:
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1349063851
I had a great turbo car, it didn't make 250wtq@2500rpm, it made that at 3100. I haven't seen a supercharger I'd want on a Miata, probably never will.
I'm the best troll, lol. It's what I do.

Hustler is N/A. He's the anti-boost.

No one needs 250wtq@2500rpm on the street nor a grown-up racetrack. If you want to drive around a parking lot in one gear, then you need all the torque you can get. I also never claimed to have that dyno-sheet for e-bragging.

I'm anti-FI for track cars when you don't have enough cash to pay someone like TSE to maintain the thing. I loved the turbo set-up, but my life is different these days and I don't have the skills or classing to be nationally competitive in TTB. I may have those skills in the near future and the wallet to be nationally competitive in a 180whp NA Miata.

Leafy is everywhere. :)

I don't really need to convince anyone of anything with turbos vs. superchargers. My SSM car is freaking fun to drive on the street. From a roll at 30mph in third it hits like a truck as soon as you touch the gas. That's fun for me. I used to play with turbos, both little ones in WRX's and big ones in Alltracs and MR2s and Supras. I'll never go back other than for a dedicated track car. For anything other than arrest-me-now 60-100mph pulls (which are fun, but ... yeah, gonna get arrested for it someday), superchargers are way more fun for me.