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Old 06-16-2012, 09:02 PM   #1
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Default What's wrong with superchargers?

Such as the MP62? Is it that they are somewhat limited in boost? What about the cold side supercharger setups?
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Old 06-16-2012, 09:44 PM   #2
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Does this look like something you'd want in your car?
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Old 06-16-2012, 09:53 PM   #3
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Cuz they whine like a bitch and i already have enough bitches whining in my car.
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Old 06-16-2012, 09:53 PM   #4
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I ran a ffs cold side setup for about 3 years. the major issue is the heat, both heat soaking the blower and heating the air. I ran water injection, both pre and post blower, and never had a problem. I was running 13psi, 225-230rwhp, and the car was predominately used for track days. before I took it apart to go V8, it was one of the fastest track miatas in texas. If you are looking for a FFS kit for a 99-00 let me know, because I've been meaning to post mine up for sale.
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Old 06-16-2012, 10:18 PM   #5
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A man walks up to a young woman in a bar and says "I can tell that you're going to get laid tonight."

"And how do you know that?" the woman asks, "Are you psychic?"

"No, I'm just stronger than you."



It's not so much that we hate positive-displacement superchargers, we just hate the people who use them. There are two principle and vastly different reasons for this.

First, the Miata aftermarket is at present principally supplied with supercharger systems by two specific vendors who have historically tended to make false and misleading statements about the kits that they sell. This has tended not even to involve the superchargers themselves, but rather the brain-damaged engine management solutions which they have packaged along with them.

Second, there's virtually no reason why one would actually be justified in installing a positive-displacement supercharger as opposed to a turbocharger. All else being equal, positive-displacement superchargers tend to be more expensive, less efficient, hotter running and make less power than a comparable turbo system.


In considering these facts, one can then look with considerable opprobrium at the extremely vocal minority of Miata owners who blindly espouse with near religious fervor the virtues not only of positive-displacement superchargers in general, but of the lying jackasses mentioned in point #1 in particular.





And here is a picture of a cat:

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Old 06-16-2012, 10:21 PM   #6
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200 ft-lbs of torque at 2500 RPM is pretty slick, in my opinion.



But then, this is not the typical MP62 setup.
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Old 06-16-2012, 10:31 PM   #7
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I think it depends on the intended use of the car. If I were doing ANYTHING with my car other than Autocrossing it I would have a turbo on it.
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Old 06-16-2012, 10:37 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgeoffriau View Post
200 ft-lbs of torque at 2500 RPM is pretty slick, in my opinion.

And what the ---- do u want 200ft-lb of torque at 2500rpm for? You plan on shifting to a 4k redline or something? Reality is when you're racing you're not going to see that "epic torque" at 2k or 3k or even 4k.
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Old 06-16-2012, 10:44 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triple88a View Post
And what the ---- do u want 200ft-lb of torque at 2500rpm for? You plan on shifting to a 4k redline or something? Reality is when you're racing you're not going to see that "epic torque" at 2k or 3k or even 4k.
Oh, I'm sorry, did the OP specify that he was interested in racing application only?
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Old 06-16-2012, 10:52 PM   #10
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You use that 200ft-lb torque on every light so u can shift at 4k rpm?
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Old 06-16-2012, 10:56 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triple88a View Post
You use that 200ft-lb torque on every light so u can shift at 4k rpm?
Are you trying to construct an argument that less torque (or less area under the curve, if you prefer) is desirable? I didn't say 200 ft-lbs at 2500 rpm is the end-all be-all. I said it's "pretty slick." It's nifty. Neat. Fun. Enjoyable.
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Old 06-16-2012, 10:59 PM   #12
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Quote:
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(pro-skub)
Quote:
Originally Posted by triple88a View Post
(anti-skub)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgeoffriau View Post
(pro-skub)
Quote:
Originally Posted by triple88a View Post
(anti-skub)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgeoffriau View Post
(pro-skub)
Quote:
Originally Posted by triple88a View Post
(anti-skub)


... And that's what's wrong.
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Old 06-16-2012, 11:11 PM   #13
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Im pretty sure the point is that theres simply no point in having the torque there, when you can have shitloads more 500rpm later turbocharged.

I mean, why is 200tq at 2500rpm better than 250tq at 3000rpm?

Dann
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Old 06-16-2012, 11:18 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrodann View Post
Im pretty sure the point is that theres simply no point in having the torque there, when you can have shitloads more 500rpm later turbocharged.

I mean, why is 200tq at 2500rpm better than 250tq at 3000rpm?

Dann
Why not 300 ft-lbs at 3500 rpm? Or 350 ft-lbs at 4000 rpm?

I swear, I completely agree with the overall (and dramatic) superiority of the turbocharger in almost all applications. But it's silly sometimes the lengths people go to argue this point...suggesting that lots of torque way down at 2500 rpm is somehow bad.

Really?



As for why I want to shift at 4k, I think I have a completely legitimate reason. After 4k, the Whipplecharger's volume is migraine-inducing.
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Old 06-16-2012, 11:37 PM   #15
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I wasnt arguing anything i guess this speaks better for what i'm trying to say.

Both dynos are limited by the stock injectors.

http://www.flyinmiata.com/tech/dyno_...odooII_1.6.pdf
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Old 06-17-2012, 12:57 AM   #16
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nothing wrong with superchargers. they're just not the best. here at mt we want the best. we are 1337 like that.

also there is nothing wrong with 200wtq at 2500. in fact, anyone that claims it sucks or you don't need it there obviously doesn't enjoy a VERY fun street car. throwing you back in your seat and hauling **** without having to be wound out to redline is a wonderful feeling. I enjoy it daily.

AND YET

there's absolutely no reason you can't achieve this with turbochargers. just run a small enough one. Its been proven too many times to count that a well set up gt2554 setup will embarrass the common supercharger setup on our cars. it is better EVERYWHERE


*****short version:
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Old 06-17-2012, 01:02 AM   #17
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Interesting, I assumed a supercharger would run cooler than a turbo. I'm not sure it's something I'd do anytime soon as I already have a TA with a LS1 but the thought of more power in my Miata is always in the back of my mind.
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Old 06-17-2012, 01:35 AM   #18
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I had an M45 Jackson kit for about six months running 10psi intercooled with meth injection. Was the car quicker than a stock miata? Hell Yes. Did I get beat routinely in any kind of acceleration incident by a turbo miata with 10psi? Yes. That "massive amount of torque at 2500rpm" didn't really amount to dick considering overall power achieved was greater on the turbo car. . .

It was a very interesting experiment none the less but my conclusion is that I'd never have another positive displacement charger on a miata again. Ever. Granted the JRSC M45 was the shittiest blower made for this specific car, I really got tired of buying belts every 2 weeks and having to tighten them almost every day or it would start slipping.

Racing around with friends in their lightnings or 03/04 Cobras the sound of an Eaton coming at you always made me giggle but after owning and driving Turbo cars, screw these blowers. Even with WMI and a semi-quality FMIC my IATs were way higher than the turbo miata I tuned. Much to my surprise the FMIC didn't really seem to change the throttle response / power transition a single bit, even though I increased the intake manifold volume by several liters in the process.




That's my perspective on SC Miatas. For the type of driving I'd be doing in basically any vehicle I owned, turbos are by far a greater match in the long run.


You could always buy a used ForFucksSake Cold side Yo-Yo Charger from tann3r AND turbo it. . . . Just throw away that powercard crap and get a REAL fuel solution running FOUR properly sized injectors via Hydra/AEM/Adaptronic/FAST/Megasquirt/Tec/Etc.


Here's an article on compound boost (Turbo pushing air into blower): http://www.musclemustangfastfords.co...a/viewall.html
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Old 06-17-2012, 02:24 AM   #19
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Positive displacement superchargers are not the only ones available. I guarantee mine is cooler than a turbo. I have less area under the curve, I admit.
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Old 06-17-2012, 02:33 AM   #20
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Many years ago I drove an M62 + TDR i/c setup on a 2000 miata with some kind of fuel and timing box.
My car at the time had the GT2554.
My car made more torque everywhere. Even at 1500 RPM. Weird, I know.
And his car had endless pinging issues.
Additionally, the M62 setup had some weird unpleasant vibrations, at certain RPMs. Dunno if this has since been fixed.
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