Advice me on shock purchase (probably bilsteins)
 

I already did a lot of searching of this forum and also of the google.

Current situation is that:
-my woman won't let me spend 2k on xidas
-I have an NA with FM springs/sways/kybagx that I installed a million years ago, give or take. I'm running the FM rear mounts.
-I have long been unhappy with the kybs and want to replace them with something better
-I don't really care about adjustability, I just want good handling.
-this is primarily a street car with sometimes track duty. Some of the roads around here suck bad.
-I am not going to be running slicks, but I sway back and forth between max perf summer and r-compound.

I am thinking bilsteins but I am confused by the many bilstein options between the various OE ones and the ones you can buy online for about 100 bucks a corner.

Are there any bilstein options out there that would work well with FM spring/sways without revalving?

I thought fatcat did revalving and shock sales, but all I see is a high dollar coilover package on his site now.

Search is your friend. There's a huge thread here (and over on CR) about how to make a budget Bilstein adjustable coil-over setup.

You'll get lots of gains for about $1000. Not Xida level, mind you, but a bit more adjust-ability and longevity over say... the FM VMAXX setup.

Go search. The answers you seek will be there.
PS. The springs can't be reused. The sway bars can. Along with your rear mounts.

Yeah, I'm about halfway through the bilsteins coilover thread.

<p>I'm sure others will chime in, but it sounds like you'd be pretty happy with MSM bilsteins and ground control coils. Have you read the Better Bilstein coilover thread here?</p>

<p>herp derp should have hit refresh before posting.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>$1000 seems very generous though. I was under the impression that you can get it done for considerably less.</p>

If everything needs to be purchased new...

$480 shocks.
$260 springs.
$300 top hats, sleeves, bump stops/etc.

Used pricing helps quite a bit. But if it's all brand new off the shelf... it's about $1040 delivered for the basics these days. The Bilsteins have gone up about $80 a set in the last few years, even with the Mazda Motorsports pricing.

Where do I buy MSM Bilsteins? They seem to come from MSM miatas from what I've seen googling. I didn't see anything like that on summit. If it's a mazda comp part, I can't join the mazda competition program as my car is currently not running.

Also, dumb question- what to the FM rear perches count as? I assumed they gave an extra inch of travel but I was still going to be buying NA suspension components.

Why MSM billies, all they are is taller?

FM perches are fancy pillowball extended tophats.

<p>Most aggressive OEM valving</p>

IMO, a large part of your problem is the combination of NA bumpstops, relatively low springrate, and the lower-than-stock static ride height associated with FM springs. While I can't recall having ever seen a dyno plot of stock NB Bilsteins as compared to KYB AGX, I can't imagine that there's a tremendous difference. Remember that the very first thing a lot of folks do after obtaining said Bilsteins is to send them to FatCat for a revalve, which you've indicated is outside of your budget.

Also, know if that you use NB shocks, you'll also have to buy NB springs.

I've seen a few people speak very highly of the Tokico Illumina as a budget shock. I have no personal experiance here, but 18psi (who, admittedly, is trying to sell a set of them right now) speaks highly of them. They're $160 each here: Miata Suspension - Shocks - Mazda Performance Parts

If you go that route, I'd highly recommend stripping out the stock bumpstop, and installing something a tad newer and more compliant. It's been a long time since I've looked at options for the NA, but Goodwin has several different units from FCM (FatCat Motorsports, a highly reputable shop) listed on the same page as the link above. Here's FCMs application guide for them: Fat Cat Motorsports - Tokico products - Miata - 90-97


All that being said, you don't have to spend $2k to get a reasonable street coilover setup. At least consider something like one of the lesser Tein packages: Miata Suspension - Coilovers - Mazda Performance Parts This will buy you ride-height adjustability along with slightly higher spring rates.


No matter what you choose, installing a set of NB upper shock mounts on all four corners will buy you some additional suspension travel: https://www.flyinmiata.com/nb-shock-conversion-kit.html (does not apply to coilover packages which include their own upper mounts, which is none of them in your proce range.) Note that with these mounts, you will lose some ride height if used with NA-style springs such as the ones you already have. This applies more to if you elect to buy a coilover package from Tein or similar.




The fancy Bilsteins were available on all later-model NBs with the "Sport" suspension, not just the MSMs. There were a few different part numbers, but they're all similar.

But, seriously, consider other options beyond Bilstein. They're nice, but they're not made of unicorn horns nor are they considerably less expensive than other available options.



Forget the fancy purple ones they sell. Buy the NB ones from the link I gave above.

I actually used to run tokico illuminas on my old autox civic and i loved them.

What is the story with the FM vmaxx coilovers (found them from your NB mount link)? They seem suspiciously low priced for a coilover with decent rate springs. I don't recognize that manufacturer name. Are the shocks any good?

Also, is Tein considered good now? My impression of Tein (quite a few years back, admittedly), was that they were pretty harsh without particularly great performance. I think the guy who had them might have been running a crap tire with really high spring rates, but my recollection is hazy.

I'm grateful for the spoonfeeding, thanks again everyone.

The money thing isn't actually that huge of a deal but I kind of feel I am peering over the edge of an abyss. I realize that if I go for an utterly balls out track suspension, I'll soon be going beyond the limits of 205/50/15 tires.... so why not upgrade to 15x9 and 245 width tires... ok, let's throw in some brakes too... and next thing you know I've spent like 4 grand on handling and my ball joints are now a wear item. I want to fix what sucks about my current setup without embarking on a long money-spending and part-installing quest.

<p>I've always thought these looked pretty solid. I don't know how to read shock dynos though. Even so, seem good quality and V8R is also known for good quality stuff.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>DSD Coilover - V8 Roadsters</p>

Interesting. I have no idea how to read shock dynos either.

I do.
Having owned agx, raceland, tein basic, tein flex, bilstein, VMAXX, and being incredibly picky about daily driving comfort, my tokico/fm setup was the only one I kept long term. I even used it on both the 01 and the MSM.

If I get the chance to try something more comfy, I'll be sure to post about it. Until then, I stand by my words.

The MSM Bilsteins are unique units with the longest shock body of any Bilstein for Miatas. This may or may not matter depending on how one intends to use them.

Vlad, you need to drive my Miata next time I'm up in Sacramento. Revalved Bilsteins and 750lb front springs... And they ride incredibly smooth on the streets.

Bilstein in Poway did an incredible job with them. They actually ride better than they did with 600lbs up front.

I haven't sampled suspensions the way Vlad has, but am quite pleased with the comfort-performance-price compromise of my Illuminas. If you've ever driven up here among the French Canadians, you know that I know bad roads. If there's something comparably priced which rides better, I'd also be interested to hear about it.

FYI for those who don't know: NB Illuminas are discontinued, so if you want them, get them while the getting is good. (Or, in OP's case, stick to your NA mounts and profit from the NA Illumina's availability.

If you're looking for performance you're crazy if you go with $760 just for the shocks on illuminas instead of going with Billies. Ride is another story, but even then the Billies are good shocks.

Huh...

I didn't realize that V8R had put together their own coilover package. No idea as to which shocks they're using, but the dyno plots look reasonable, the springrates are good, and they include tophats.

This interests me. Not gonna buy a set just yet, but they would appear well poised to compete in the budget coilover category.




I've never seen any comparisons (so much good data was lost from the FCM website when Shaikh locked it all down), but wouldn't having the longest shock body of any Miata Bilstein be a *bad* thing in terms of compression travel, particularly when coupled with NA upper mounts?

Yes. Typically, if MSM Bilsteins are to be re-used as adjustable coilovers, it is recommended to use ISC extended tophats (or similar) in the rear in order to regain some compression travel. NB tophats in the front are sufficient.

I had a setup like this for a while and it worked quite well.

So far I've had a spec miata bilstein setup, the same spec miata bilstein setup with 550lb front springs, XIDAs with 1000/400 spring rates, and a set of off the shelf Tein Street Advance.

The XIDAs are as good as everyone says... best performance I've felt and they're more comfortable than stock suspension, even with the 1000lb springs.

Teins vs. Bilsteins- I would buy the Teins again if it were a 100% daily driver. They're very comfy and performance isn't bad. They also have really short rear shock bodies so you can get the car pretty low without bottoming. The 550/325 Bilstein setup was much better on track but can sometimes be a little harsh on the street.

I wouldn't hesitate to recommend the Teins again, but I recently owned a 350Z for a few months with a set of KW V3s and I was VERY pleased with those shocks for DD and track use. I haven't seen many people running them on miatas, but I would really like to try the ST coilovers for the miata. ST is owned by KW and my understanding is that they just use KW V1 internals in a mild steel coilover body instead of stainless steel.

Also, spec miata bilsteins are just Bilstein HDs, which you can buy at autozone with a 20% off coupon. You want the NA HDs whether you're putting them on an NA or NB.

Found the data I was looking for, as relates to the conversation with mgeoffriau:


https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1437056087

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1437056087
(images courtesy of FatCat Motorsport)

So, yeah- the MSM Billies are long. Much longer than AGX in the rear, and about the same in the front.

All else being equal (eg: assuming you don't run out of piston travel, which is rare), shorter shock bodies are desirable. Miatas in general don't have much suspension travel, and so they tend to spend a surprisingly large amount of time on the bump-stops. The shorter the shock body, the more useful travel you have where the spring can do its job before the bump-stop comes into play.

This is also why installing longer, progressive, aftermarket bump-stops made from a material softer than 20 year old hardened rubber makes a big difference- it makes the transition into the bump-stop much less harsh. And it's also why installing stiffer springs can, somewhat counterintuatively, lead to a much more comfortable ride on less-than-perfect roads; they keep you off of the bump-stops altogether.


Looking at the data above, I can see why Vlad likes the Tokicos so much. They're a fair bit shorter than most OE / Bilstein shocks, and this translates to more useful suspension travel before the stop.

Hmm -- apparently not uniquely long, however. I may have misremembered that or perhaps it was unsubstantiated folklore. In any case, yes, using MSM Bilsteins ideally involves extended tophats to compensate for the shock body length.

Ever think about going Koni race up front, Koni Yellow in the rear with GC coilovers and spec your own spring rates through them, 700/400s or higher depending on your tires. I've priced this around $1300 and I can't see a coilover in that price range being as good.

I have read a few good things about Feal, but I have yet to see it in person or see much data on them.

Any particular reason to spec two very different-valved and differently-constructed shocks on the same car?

Price

*More accurately, Cost

^price for sure. I'll be running xidas in the front and racelands in the back. PM Emilio for recommended spring rates for that setup.

I'm thinking:
bilstein front left
koni front right
raceland rear left
tecna right rear

Sustain 10G in the parking lot

Was that setup recommended by Shaikh or Emilio? Or is it from Racelands setup manual?

If I told you I'd have to kill you.

I think the setup would be fine for autocross and some street fun. I think it's not the perfect situation, but I think both being a twin tube setup and very similar design the differences wouldn't be analogous to a Xida/Raceland monstrosity, but to keep it inline with this forum you might as well be dramatic.

Women come and go,
Xidas are forever ...

OK yeah, I lol'd

That sounds like an excellent drunk driving simulator.

I am using BC coilovers in my nb and u cant beet them, handles like its on rails and at a fair price

They're not even fm vmaxx good, lol.

<br />
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<br />Can't beet them but can :eggplant: them

My Tein Flex's are ok. I really think it depends on road conditions also though. If you live somewhere with shitty roads for your DD I'd think vmaxx or some st coilovers would fit the bill. The ST is probably a little stiffer then the vmaxx but not by a lot.

I think my Teins are great when i'm on a decent road.... if I hit a beat up road it doesn't bother me too much but if I have a passenger I can tell they are like omg wtf (then you throw in a little boost and their like weeeeee and forget).

I had Tokico blue's on my honda w/ eibachs and liked them a lot. If I was trying to get coilovers i'd probably do ebay with revalved Bilsteins. Otherwise FM springs with tokico's would probably be what i'd go with.

If I were starting all over i'd probably go with one of those options. If I saw some cheap flex's on the FS section I wouldn't rule those out. Think i'm rolling 8kg/12kg on my flex and as said it's not bad.

Vmax are pure scrap, did u ever use BC coilovers yourself, most likely not by the sounds of it, I used blistiens and konis on other cars and the can't be put down, if the op is moaning about money BC coils should do him, I laugh at vmax users.

<p>I've heard good things about BC, but I'd be more inclined to go with a shock that's been designed and engineered specifically for the Miata.</p><p>I'd also personally never buy VMAXXXXXXXX.</p>

The konis would be my choice in that case, quite expensive but u do get a lifetime guarantee if I remember correctly which makes u feel better when coughing up for them.

<p>Have you used the konis? Most who put them on Miatas and have experience with other good suspension on Miatas find themselves unsatisfied with them. I do not have any personal experience with them.</p>

Some of the fastest STS cars in the country run a Koni setup.

<p>Excellent. How do they ride, in a dual-duty setup? What kind of Konis are they, good 'ole Yellows?</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>The primary complaint I've heard about Koni Yellows on Miatas is harshness.</p>

I have used them on my old ep82 starlet turbo which is completely different compared to a miata but I did love them, i also used blistiens on the same car but I didn't like them as much as the konis.the springs u use play a big part also.

yes I have.
they are pure "Made in Taiwan" crap that has raceland type of valving after only about a few months worth of use.

Do you have lap times showing that these don't suck or is your 1 pre-requisite for them: "my car still drives down the road"?

meaning your "experience" means crap, becuase they are actually great on other cars, and really suck on miata's. This is common knowledge. At least compared to what's available now (and not in the 90's)

v-max = riceland with softer springs to hide the lack of any low speed damping, like at all.

The ride generally sucks. It's all a compromise at this price level. If we had no budget I would be on some Motons right now, or driving a Lotus.


They are usually just yellows, but they generally don't talk about any of their valving.

<p>Budget bilsteins ride better and handle nearly as well, from what I've read. Until it's proven otherwise, that's what I'll continue to recommend for a budget setup.</p><p>Except... OP, buy the V8Roadsters coilovers and tell us how you like them.</p><p>I bet they're decent.</p>

I have only driven in one car with a budget Bilstein setup on 800/500s, revalved, and they had schrader valves installed. It is equally as uncomfortable as a Koni setup and straight up sketchy to drive on the road. Any big bumps would upset that car to the point where you were fixing oversteer or going into understeer. This was with the largest RB tubular bar, 2554r setup, and 205 Federal RSRs (140tw). Maybe on a smooth track or something the car would turn good times. At the autocross and on the street it's nowhere near the front of the pack, though.

*edit, a word

<p>revalved by who?</p><p>I don't consider a revalved, 800/500 setup with the big bars and such as necessarily a budget setup. Maybe a budget extreme performance setup.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>For dual duty, I'm just talking about regular Bilsteins with GC springs and collars, running something like 500/350 rates.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>But whatever, OP seems to have checked out, ha.</p>

They were revalved by a guy on here, I think his name is Hindrick or Kindrick, something like that. Also I see people pop c-clips and have some coil bind issues with going budget Bilstein. I think some of that is user error though.

this one guy at walmart revalved my showas they road so hard

I'm still lurking. I just didn't have anything to contribute. I've been doing research in the meantime.

It mostly seems like a wasteland below 2 grand. Anything that is proven to be good by experts is $$$$ and it seems that the 800-1400 dollar range is full of potentially interesting setups... But also corner cutting, compromises and Chinese parts. Basically a minefield. It seems like 99 percent of the reviews are completely unhelpful- a mix of confirmation bias and cluelessness that results in identical reviews for Ricelands, Bilsteins, Konis, Feal, Vmaxx, etc.

I want a respectfully fast setup that handles r comps fine and that is not useless on the street due to brutal harshness or inability to soak up a bump without flying into a guardrail. Feal seems interesting in the 1.3k range, as do the v8 roadster set (based mostly on the reputations of the sellers). I'm going to have time to think on this while I pull the engine, so I'll continue to do research. Who knows, I might be able to bullshit my way into some Xidas.

<p>^this guy.. I like this guy.</p>

My kingdom for a set of Tecnas.

No kidding. I wanted Tecnas so damn bad. I currently have Vmaxx Sports. They are horrendous. Do not buy them.

Wow, just pieced together the tecna story that happened while I was gone. Holy crap.