AWR mounts vs SSK to help missing 3rd gear?
 

As some of you may know, I'm starting to make decent power in my 04 MSM. Roughly around 270-300whp depending on gas/spark map. one of my issue now is that 3rd gear is getting harder to find when trying to shift fast (especially when hooning around) and it feels like it has gotten progressively worse as the power has come up.

I'm pretty sure my mounts are still in one piece as the car only has 25k miles on it and they looked good when the motor went back in a few thousand miles ago. And my shifter bushing is in good shape too with Amsoil MTG oil.

Also I'm not sure if I never noticed it, or just never drove on a piece of road regularly enough that showed symptoms, but my god, the shifter,(aka tranny) moves around a lot just sitting there cruising in 6th gear in some instances.

There is a pretty good wash board part of I15 going either north or south between 8 and 52, where it moves a lot more than what I consider acceptable. Ie; moving left to right probably 1/4 to 1/2".

What would you look at first to help me out in this situation. I know one of the answers is just shift slower, but would either the mounts or the SSK help more in this situation?

When I do miss, I'm pretty sure I'm hitting between 1st and 3rd. And it's not just me, my father and a coworker have hit the exact same thing.

Thanks.

ES diff bushings?

Sav. I had not even really looked at those. Thanks for your input. I'll check them out.

They are cheap, easy to install, and get rid of a lot of shifter movement, or at least it did for me. I'm at stock power level, but I still noticed a difference. The downside is that you hear a lot more of what happens in your transmission and differential. I actually like it, but I know some may not find it suitable. Mazda Competition mounts are also an option if you do not like the extra NVH, but they are more expensive, and softer.

IMO, the ES bushings add the most to the shift feel for the least amount of NVH increase.

AWR style 70D engines mounts + Mazda Competition differential mounts checking in.

The AWRs are frigging GLORIOUS for reducing drivetrain movement, but I wholeheartedly recommend you get a ride in someones car who has them installed before you commit. I was not prepared for the increase in NVH for what is primarily a street car.

I've been mostly looking at you in what to expect from them.

Totally agree, that's why I bought them. I can say they helped dramatically, and are totally livable on the street.

I have no experience with the AWR mounts, but everyone's reaction is HOLY S***! in 2 ways, 1)They stiffen up the drivetrain to where you never have an excuse to miss a shift, 2)My car is now a jackhammer.

I do have experience with the Mazda Comp motor mounts, and ES differential bushings, and I can say for a street car, it really makes driving more fun and the shifter moves significantly less than the stock setup.

I would say give the ES bushings a shot if I were you, they are super cheap, and can't hurt anything. If you don't like the NVH increase from them, you could never, ever live with the NVH from the AWRs. If that's not stiff enough, give the Mazda Comp motor mounts a chance. The Mazda Comp motor mounts barely increase NVH at all in my opinion, and they help, but not as much as the ES bushings.

I'm not willing to write off the AWRs quite yet, I'm reserving judgement until I make it through the 500 mile break-in period.

Back when I still had the stock (cracked and torn) motor mounts I installed the Comp diff bushings "because I was in there" doing a torsen swap and that alone was a dramatic change in shifting accuracy. I could see the ES in the diff to be a huge help over the stockers.

Andrew has already hooked it up on the diff bushings. I'll look into Mazda comp motor mounts in the future.

AWRs didnt really add much more vibration to the car than the broken stock mounts. Although I'm also comparing vibes from an 8ok mile factory motor to a balanced to survive life at 8500 built motor. They made it a shit load louder. The noise in the interior at idle is louder than standing behind the car. But once you get above 3k every thing smooths right out.

What are SSK mounts? I've never heard of them before. If they're delrin you're going to want to stay clear unless you want to have to stop to tighten all the bolts in the car every 3 miles. And if they're any other sort of stock style mount they dont restrain the drivetrain nearly as well as the AWR mounts.

Leafy, don't be gay. SSK = Short Shifter Kit. I'm pretty sure you are under 30 so you should know this.

I've had 2~3 SSKs in various 5 & 6 speed Miatas over the years and the only one that impressed me was the MiataRoadster one that I'm running in my current 6 speed.

The Mazdacomp motor mounts + ES diff bushing combo helps, but still sucks.

back in my day we called those STS=short throw shifters. I dont think I'd want to own a 6 speed without the miataroadster sts, cause the stock shifter makes it feel like a truck with 300k miles.

Sorry, yeah. I used the term SSK because that's what Bill from Miataroadster pretty much always references on this site, so I thought that'd make sense. I wasn't trying to be trendy with the acronyms.

Thanks all for the advice. I'm going to start with the ES bushings. I'm guessing it'll help a little and I'll just have to see how much of a improvement that is in my opinion. And then I'm pretty sure my stock mounts will need replacing fairly soon after that. Maybe there will be a softer AWR version out by then.

I was contemplating getting in on Bills group buy, but I guess I'll hold off a little longer. I really want a good seat.

If you want a softer AWR version, ask for it now. I already made the suggestion to Tony that there's a market for a mount that doesnt rip out like the stock mounts do but isnt a poly mount and he said he'd look into it. More interest would make him look into it faster.

Who's Tony?

Anthony Woodford Racing

The "Anthony" part of Anthony Woodford Racing.

People complain that the MazdaComp bushings only last a season under hard abuse, and those are like $48/EACH (949) to replace. Replacement 70D bushings for these mounts are $32 (949) for a complete set. How often are people swapping out the bushings on these things?

The design of the AWR makes me wonder if a softer bushing is really the answer here. There just isn't that much "meat" in the bushing to absorb the energy getting pumped out of the engine in the form of vibration. On the other hand, though it might not last "as long" a complete set of softer bushing that costs $32 a year to replace is really not that bad. I'd buy a softer insert just to try them out. Hell, I'd considered cutting something myself if I had access to a lathe.

Keep in mind this is a BECAUSERACECAR part that was designed to meet the needs of that particular group of people. The way I see it, us foolish street users really should have no business complaining about NVH when using a dedicated racecar part.

The bushings on the AWRs will last far longer than the stock pile of junk designed Mazdacomps.

Yeah, but if you pack that bitch full of gummy bears how long would we expect the bushing to last? I'm sure there is a middle ground somewhere.

Do the poly bushings in the awr mounts ever need to be replaced? A rubber bushing would absorb more of the smaller vibes that most complain about. I wouldnt run softer than the 70 duro in a racecar. But an option for the high power street miatas that lasts longer than 100 miles would be nice.

The stock style rubber fail so fast because its literally pulling the rubber apart everything the motor moves.

And that's exactly what will open up your market to more street users. The problem is that if they don't outlast the MazdaComps, the wine n cheese set will decry them en masse

There's no way they WON'T outlast the MazdaComps. It's a design thing, not a bushing composition thing.

Just shot him off an email. His shop is only maybe 5-10 min from my appt.

And if AWR was smart, and they are, these poly bushings are something right out of the ES or prothane catalog which probably means there's a stock rubber bushing from some random car that already drops into their mounts. By virtue of the design of these mounts there's really no way that a rubber mount wouldnt last 20 years in it and it would die from heat and age rather than the mechanical forces involved.

I had just done some ES polly suspension bushings on a different car the weekend before I did the mounts and thought the same thing. Someone who has a set sitting around measure the bushings and fire off an email to ES and find out if they will tell us what kits it cross references over to. Unfortunately its probably something that uses a bonded bushing like the Miata, so that may not be practical.

Shouldnt be anything wrong with using a bonded rubber bushing.

Other than ease of install or possibly the overall length? I can grease up a bushing and hammer it in with the best of them, but the length might get tricky. I guess I should have clarified, IIRC on the Miata 2 piece ES bushings we installed, there were a few where the 2 halves were not the same length past the shoulder. It may be the same for whatever bushing half they used. Just a random thought.

You'll want a manly press if you want to swap out your poly bushings for a sleeved bonded rubber bushing in those mounts.


Source: Just installed Whiteline sleeved poly bushings in the control arms of the MXFail. Had to press out factory sleeved rubber bushings.


Terrifying.

The miata rubber ones come out fairly easily depending on age. $5 tool FTW.

This is exactly what I am thinking.

I think going to a lower durometer will not cure the NVH "issue" (It's not really an issue, this product was designed for racing). Decreasing the durometer of the bushing, eventually a point will be met where durability will be an issue. I think it will reach this point before the average person would consider this an acceptable street mount.

I think there is a way to reduce NVH, while keeping the same style mount which eliminates almost all engine movement. If the O.D. of the bushing and chassis-side mount(The part that houses the bushings) is increased, it will increase the amount of bushing material between the engine side and chassis side of the mount. This would decrease NVH to an extent, and only introduce a very small amount of extra deflection.

Then again, rubber may be the answer, because this will likely result in custom bushings(not that big of a deal, but just something to consider, as the AWRs probably use some bushing off the shelf from ES/Prothane/whatever)

They're also tiny.

These were brand new arms i was fucking with. These bitches were in there for everything they had.

Tony actually already got back to me. Seems like a really nice guy. He said they looked into the idea of using a softer material, but decided against it. He also informed me of the dimensions of the bushing they use.

"If you can find a bushing that has a 1.5" barrel with a .750 bore and a .250 flange in a softer durometer from someone other than energy suspension, then you might be able to do this."


I italicized that part so anyone reading this later would see that. Anyone got any ideas now?

Prothane? SuperPro also springs to mind, but I believe they are Australian?

You're looking in the wrong areas. You don't want to be looking at aftermarket performance companies, they won't have what you're looking for.

And yes, SuperPro is Australian.

I dont think its all that possible to get a poly bushing softer than 70 duro. So what you need is a 2" long 3/4" diameter rubber bushing with a 5/8" ID (IIRC from the bolt). The rubber bushing isnt going to have flanges like a poly bushing because it doesnt need them.

Just installed some used supermiata (AWR) mounts with 70 durometer bushings. It's the older 1.5 inch style btw. Im not sure how I feel yet. Its a good bump in NVH, but I want to give it a bit. Still, I did a bit of research and it looks like the leaf-spring shackle bushings from older domestics (YJ, early 70s Chevys, etc) might be able to fit instead of the poly. Just thinking for now ... I'll update if I do it. Figured I would put it out there in case others might be interested to look into it further.

Ordered this, which looks like it will work well, perhaps needing trimming. Part is HB-902 leaf spring bushing:

https://www.generalspringkc.com/hb90...uired-per-eye/

I'll update when I install

These should work well! Been using the 70 durometer, 1.5" poly's, and while it's calmed down, I'd prefer quieter. These are rubber leaf spring bushings for a GM, part # HB-902. Feels rather firm, but I'm sure they are a little softer than the poly, plus I think rubber has better damping characteristics. Probably need to be cut slightly, and I doubt the sleeve will fit ... hope that's not an issue. Will install soon.

Measurements:
Overall length = 1.75"
Barrel length = 1 3/8"
Lip length = 3/8"
Barrel diameter = 1 1/2"
Bolt hole = 9/16"

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...1c61de8588.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...19d600c70c.jpg