Baer Brakes
 

Its pretty cheap compared to wilwood, almost half price.

How come we dont hear anything about the Baer big brake conversion for the Miata? Worse performance?

I will caveat all of the below by saying I'm far from an expert on this subject:

I don't think it's strange there aren't more aftermarket brake options, or that there is a great deal of interest in them.
I think it's consensus that the stock 94+ brakes are pretty damn good with lines/pads/fluid for all but hard track abuse. Brake upgrades beyond lines/pads/fluid (assuming 94+) for a DD street-car are kinda overkill anyways. I'm not talking about the dude who lives on Mulholland Hwy and corner carves 10 miles to work and back... just the other 99% of DD's.

As hard as I've ever driven my Miata on the street, I've never reached a point braking where I thought I needed more. I did upgrade to 94+ awhile back because I got it cheap... but I don't think I needed it.

If you've got a decent set of pads, it makes more sense to spend money on tires for a street car. I thought my 195 T1R's were the bizzle until I rode with a guy on 205 Azenis... I can imagine the grip you'd have with wider. You can pick up 15x7 6UL's and 225 T1R's for $1100... which will improve stopping on the street 10x what a set of Willwoods can.

One question I have is why Falken only makes Azenis in 205 for 15" wheels? 225/45/15 RT615's would be the ideal 300whp Miata tire. I've been doing a lot of homework for my eventual upgrade to a 300whp '99. Wheels are a no-brainer with 6UL's... but tires choice is giving me fits.

If you're looking for that extra 1% of performance trail-braking onto and offramp, then perhaps a set of big-brakes will help you modulate better... until you hit a guardrail (then you stop really fast).

i just bought the wilwood kit for my car from a guy in L.A

i got a smoking deal for them 550

11 inch rotor the car stops like a dream best 550 i ever spent

but i was looking for the baer kit at first

he has a set of kvr big brake's for the miata

i'll post a link for his thread


http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sgv/pts/759318603.html

I pretty much agree with samnavy.

With the 94+ brakes, it's already so easy to lock up the wheels. At that point, it's the tires that dictate the stopping distance.

not easy to lock up wheels after 10 laps on a race track I tell ya whut.

wilwoods make the same clamping pressure as sport brakes. They're basically lighter and the pads are easier to change. Enjoy the placebo.

Baer brakes are pretty much expensive junk,when was the last time you saw Baer brakes on a race car or highend/exotic car.

The problem with Baer is,they use the same size rotor and caliper for every application,bigger is not always better,especially when it comes down to brakes.

I would much rather have a more balanced braking system that's designed for my car,than a huge universal brake set-up that looks good while the car is standing still but throws the cars balance off when the car is moving/braking.

Makes sense, thanks guys.

The two ideal 300whp Miata tires are already available in a 225/45. They are the Toyo RA-1 and the Nitto NT-01. If you thought a 205 Azenis was grippy, a 225 R-comp will blow your mind.

Isn't that the reason why you invest in a $40 proportioning valve?

I used to run the Baer Brake setup on my old Miata for a while. It was a little heavy, but 400hp made me not think about that. Only problem was that I could sometimes lockup the front at 65-80 Mph as the calipers just grabbed.

Once I learned to drive with them it was great! First lockup at speed was a little scary.

A proportioning valve will not balance out the massive 13'' rotors and their unsprung weight during braking.

Functionality wise, I don't see any real reason to spend the money on anything more than 94 brakes. With proper tires and pads they are more than adequate at the track.

that's an unlikely argument because unsprung weight has nothing to do with the balance of the car. Maybe with the damping requirement, but not balance.

Personal experience? I've faded Porterfield R4 race pads in my stock brakes.

what sav said. i was shocked how solid my big brakes were on the track. i was able to keep up with faster miatas in the corners because I could brake later and with more confidence.

I need to get a set so I don't have to use the sport brakes.

That goes back to my 99.9% of daily drivers.
What kind of mileage can you expect out of a set of those?

I can't spend $600 on tires twice a year. The term "ideal" means different things to different people. Sure, I'll take an Atom around the inside with R-Comps... but I've gotten 20k out of 2 sets of T1S and will have at least that much from my current T1R's, for $90 each

I think there's a need for more choices in 15" tires in the 225 range. I'm gonna need to see a set of 225/50 T1R's before I decide if a sidewall that tall meets my aesthetic standards. EdgeRacing sells the Ventus Z212 for $89 in that size... just haven't heard huge things about them.

I've got a lot more research to do on this and will start a dedicated thread when the time comes.

We need more street tires in 225. RA-1/NT01 are the longest lasting tires made for the track. I can get about 10 track days (50 sessions) out of a set of NT01's, and about 6 track days out of a set of Azenis (195's). After you factor in the price, it comes out in a wash. I bet if the Azenis were available in 225, they'd last longer on cool track days if you could keep them in their effective heat range.

btw, NT01's last loger than RA-1's because even though its the same rubber and nt01's have lower tread depth, the rubber blocks are much fatter, so they have less heat in them initially and you can take shaving out of the equation. The wider you go, the longer they last...and its a significant difference.

After you drive one session on r-comps, you'll never go back. They make track days scary.

+1 on upgrading to 94 + brakes. Basically, you just need the brackets rotors and pads. The calipers are the same for all years. If you want a better feel, get SS brake lines.
PM me if your interested in an upgrade kit. I have everything(rotors,pads,brackets) except the SS brake lines.

Personal experience indeed. I've never seen a set of Blues fade on a miata.

hawk pads i like them seem to work great

Only experience I hace had with the Wilwoods was a friend's FMII 1.6l Miata. After 10 mins at the track, the brakes were GONE. I did 4 sessions on my car with 94 front brakes w/ EBC Yellows, stock rears w/ EBC Greens, SS lines, and Motul. ZERO FADE. Power difference was about 80whp, so I am sure that made some difference. I am currently sourcing out a Sport brake set for the front, and non-sport 1.8 rear brakes. Should work just fine, with some 17X7.5 wheels and 235/40/17 tires.

When was the last time you saw a highend/exotic with Wilwoods? Brembo seems to be the high-end standard.

I see lots of Baer brakes on bigger cars like Corvettes and Mustangs at the regional and national autocrosses, not sure about track situations.

Not true. Take a look at their catalogue at www.Baer.com. They have many different brake calipers, rotors and kits for different applications.

This thread seems to be going off the main topic/question.

Seems to me that one of the primary reasons Miata owners are shying away from the Baer/PBR calipers is because they are heavier than Wilwoods = higher unsprung weight = less responsive suspension. As far as actual stopping power, doesn't anyone remember the issue of Miata Magazine (when it was around) where they installed a Baer Big Brake Kit on their 99 BRG? 60-0 mph stopping in 109 feet, out braking many more expensive cars like Corvettes and Ferraris. I would say they can do a good job of stopping a Miata; dare I say better than stock.

If you can lock your brakes up, there is enough clamping force. Fade resistance and ease of modulation may be a different story. I can't comment because I haven't had personal experience in this area. The only experience I have had is with stock '95M and '93LE brakes compared to my front Wilwood BBK at regional and national autocross events (~60 sec courses). I never experienced fade with either system -- even when there was more than one driver, and not much cool-down time between runs.

It would be nice to hear from someone with more specific personal experience with both the Baer BBK and a Wilwood BBK.

Speaking of bling, I also think people shy away from the Baer kit because of the 2-pot caliper system. Much more fashionable to have 4-pot, or now even 6-pot with differential piston sizes. Again, probably more beneficial on the track, but for a daily driver, it's overkill. The Baer BBK fills the inside of a 16"+ wheel really well, and if you're going for that look, you won't be disappointed.

I've been doing some big brake research after my 1st FI track day. Sportcompact magazine or someone like that on the web built a turbo Miata for time attack racing. They had Baer on it and switched them out for some custom set of something else. Big complaint was the weight. Baer's were too HEAVY.

Don't know squat myself. Just regurgitating what I read last week at an auto ezine.

Oh, that craigslist posting is obviously gone now. I did a quick search and couldn't find it again. There was a hardtop there for $800. Decent price these days if any of you SoCal guys need one.

Right, but are those guys running 200whp? At stock power Blues are fine, but when you're stopping the car from 125mph and not 98mph, the game changes. I'm on your side; I hate BBKs fundamentally because people who generally buy them do so to get "better" braking without even the most basic understanding of what their issue is, but for some cars, bigger brakes are the answer.

I'm running a set of Raybestos ST-43 pads in my stock brakes right now, and I'm taking them to Willow Springs in 3 weeks. If they hold up, I won't be getting a BBK. If I get even the slightest hint of fade, a BBK will be on the wishlist - with Carbotechs all around.

I've run the Baers and a couple of generations of Wilwood kits on my own cars. I've also driven the KVRs. Keep in mind that I ran the Baers a few years back, it's possible they've changed things. I've also learned a lot since then, and I would test them differently now.

KVR was based in Ottawa where I lived, and I wouldn't even go in there to buy brake fluid. That's all I'm gonna say about that.

The Baers are a bit rough and ready. The rotor is a 13" Mustang GT part that's been turned down to 12.5" and redrilled from a 5-bolt to 4-bolt pattern. Yeah, you can imagine how that looks. The bracket is made from steel. They looked badass, but the rotating mass did really weird things to the steering. It was like having a gyroscope on each front wheel. The pedal was softer (pistons too large) as well. I wasn't really all that impressed, and I was easier to please then. I sold them and installed some Wilwood-based brakes.

The first set of Wilwood brakes I used had a bracket that wasn't quite dimensionally right, causing the pad to hang over the edge of the rotor and develop a lip. Obviously sub-optimal. They also used an off-the-shelf rotor from another application (good) that forced the caliper to sit further outboard than ideal (bad from a wheel fitment standpoint). You can now get two-piece rotors in this offset, making that design a pretty good one if you have wheels that will fit it. Too bad it's no longer available.

I added a proportioning valve eventually and that helped the balance. Later, I went to a four wheel kit and that helped even more :)

To me, the factors a big brake kit has to address are the following:
- what does it do to the brake bias? Can this be adjusted satisfactorily with an adjustable valve? That's not always the case - if you get too much front bias, you won't be able to dial it out with a valve.
- are the brackets consistently made with some attention paid to weight?
- are the rotors available from more than one source?
- what's the rotating mass?
- what's the unsprung mass? The weight of the bracket and the caliper come in to play here, where the Wilwood does very well.
- what's the quality of the caliper? A flexy caliper with a lot of pistons isn't always a good thing. There was a 6-piston super-sexy kit on the market for a while that just didn't work all that well.
- what's the availability of pads? The Wilwood has a huge advantage here.

Keith beat me to it...

It's all about the weight and balance.

They are indeed very heavy compared to stock not to mention you probably have to go to at least a 16in wheel and tire combo (Adding more weight).

The modulation is pretty good although there is a bit of slack between just touching the brakes and having feedback from the pedal, this is not that bad.

Then the F/R bias is also altered much more in a 1.6 than in a 1.8 sport brake setup.

I still have the baers, and I had the rear's upgraded to the Sports, the balance is better but still is off. I will be installing Carbotech Panther Plus in the rear and bobcats in the front to continue to improve the F/R balance. I already installed an adjustable proportioning valve but it does littel to make this noticeably better.

If all this does not tell you to stay away from them I will be more than happy to sell you mine with the new pads and all!!!:)

miatex

Just take a look at what the EP guys are running.

I've been running 1.8 brakes on a higher HP (supercharged, ~200) Miata for a couple years now. For what I've spent on pads and rotors in the past 2 years, I would have about 80% of a BBK kit paid for by now.

I had a couple of instances where the car experienced a loss of control during high speed heavy braking. It was like each wheel was decelerating at it's own pace. The objective in these cases became an issue of keeping the car straight and on the tarmac. Braking earlier, of course, made this problem go away, but didn't help potential lap times.

The kinetic energy present in braking from 125 mph vs 100 mph is 56% more. I think the "brake dancing" was the result of the pads out gassing from too much heat. Perhaps better modulation would be the answer, but I have convinced myself I lack those skills. Regardless, I've decided it's Big Brake time.

There seems to be 2 BBK's for the M1 Miata: Goodwin's and Monster Miata's. Goodwin's has several front rotor options, but maintain 1.8 rear calipers applied to a larger diameter, solid rotor.

When I ran my stock R-package on the track, the rear brakes were just along for the ride. Wear was negligible on both the rotor and pads - you could get 2 seasons on them with no signs of excessive heating or surface crazing on the rear rotor.

With the SC'd Miata on 1.8 brakes, I get about 1 season on the rear pads and rotors with fresh wear and surface crazing present on the rotor surface. They definitely require closer monitoring. Because of this observation I decided Goodwin's kit wasn't the direction I wanted. If I currently have temp issues with the rear brakes I need to address them with the kit upgrade.

I have Monster Miata's BBK on the way. All you buy from them is the rotor hats and adapter brackets. The rotors are 11" vented Wilwoods on all 4 corners. Late 2nd gen turbo or convertible RX-7 rear calipers are used for the rear brakes. The RX-7 calipers let you retain the ebrake.

Front calipers are forged Wilwood Dynalites. Brake pads go to a common backing plate pattern and costs go down from Miata front 1.8s @ ~$135/set to ~$65/set in Hawk HT10 prices.

I hope to have the first run on this brake kit in by the end of Sept.

The FM kit is no longer the Goodwin setup. Also, I believe Brembo has a (very large and very expensive) kit available as well. So there are at least four options.

Brakes.... generating heat is only part of the equation! You need to dissipate that heat in order to sustain continuous braking... or fade and pad wear increase dramatically.

I upgraded to to 1.8L / Hawk SPS / 225 tire and can lock up the fronts, but without cooling ducting - only a few times.

Go with 1.8L with a good pad and ducting.

That being said ... I’m working on a 11" VW Corrodo rotor / relocation bracket for the stock caliper. If it works Ill start a new thread w/ pics.

If you use Corrado rotors, we have a two-piece rotor available as an upgrade. Not a cheap upgrade, but it's still a cool option to have.

*.corrado > anything else