Better upgrade/replacement Miata clutch for less then OEM. - Page 2 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


Suspension, Brakes, Drivetrain discuss the wondrous effects of boost and your miata...

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 04-30-2010, 02:03 PM   #21
Senior Member
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Northeastern CT
Posts: 547
Total Cats: 2
Default



actually now i'm running a KL pressure plate with a toyota pickup truck disc but.... that's a whole 'nother story
therieldeal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2010, 04:23 PM   #22
Newb
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 9
Total Cats: 0
Default

so I am guessing this does apply to aftermarket mx6 clutches as well?

random ratings comparison with prices i was seeing on ebay:

f1 stage 1 clutch kit:
1.8 Miata - 227 hp, 204 ft/lbs, $117 shipped
2.5 Mx-6 - 262 hp, 246 ft/lbs $108 shipped

f1 stage 3 clutch kit:
1.8 Miata - 320 hp, 297 ft/lbs $169 shipped
2.5 Mx-6 - 380 hp, 378 ft/lbs $156 shipped

and mx-6 clutch kits seem to be 8% cheaper
mfvt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2010, 04:59 PM   #23
Senior Member
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Northeastern CT
Posts: 547
Total Cats: 2
Default

Just remember you will have to buy a TOB separately, the MX6 one wont work in a miata. Negates any savings you might find by buying the MX6 clutch kit.
therieldeal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2010, 06:01 AM   #24
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,011
Total Cats: 7
Default

I guess it depends where you shop. I went with Autozone because they are everywhere and had the MX6 in stock.
lazzer408 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2010, 04:39 AM   #25
Newb
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Scandinavia
Posts: 43
Total Cats: 0
Default

I Got a set for MX6 and did some rough measurements on the pressure plate with some weights and a dial gauge. It turned out to have an equal spring rate as the Miata. Also spring geometry measured very similar, apart from the obvious finger length. Both were Exedy/Daikin clutch (DK stampings). I do not see how I could have used the MX6 PP with the Miata TOB which falls right through. Anyway, the larger disc is a nice find!

therieldeal, you seem to be doing some interesting clutch work. I would love to hear the toyota pickup truck disc story.
j-po is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2010, 06:34 AM   #26
Newb
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Scandinavia
Posts: 43
Total Cats: 0
Default

A word of caution: the MX6 center plate of the disc protrudes about 2mm more towards the pressure plate fingers than the original. Looks like they might even contact when depressing the clutch. I don't want to find out what happens if they do.

Now I'm back to considering using the MX6 pressure plate after all. I'll have to find a larger TOB to contact the fingers properly though. Toyota 1ZZFE engine (1.8 Corolla etc) should have a 33mm TOB bore which is close. Another option would be to sleeve the transmission front cover shaft to take many other bearings (such as Honda Prelude). Sadly the MX6 part I got was too wide for the fork. The seat of the fork pivot ball should also be machined a bit lower to compensate the protruding MX6 fingers.
j-po is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2010, 12:10 PM   #27
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Fairfield, California
Posts: 418
Total Cats: 0
Wink

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rennkafer View Post
Incorrect.. if you halved the area of the pad but kept the same normal force applied to it, it would work better (discounting heat dissispation/fading). The only two things that matter are force applied and coefficient of friction. Here's a quote from a website that explains this in more detail... all you engineer/physics types need not read further.

"Standard friction equation
When a force is applied to an object, the resistive force of friction acts in the opposite direction, parallel to the surfaces.

The standard equation for determining the resistive force of friction when trying to slide two solid objects together states that the force of friction equals the coefficient friction times the normal force pushing the two objects together. This equation is written as

Fr = μN

where:

•Fr is the resistive force of friction
•μ is the coefficient of friction for the two surfaces (Greek letter "mu")
•N is the normal or perpendicular force pushing the two objects together
•μN is μ times N
Fr and N are measured in units of force, which are pounds or newtons. μ is a number between 0 (zero) and ∞ (infinity).

Applies to static and kinetic
This equation applies to both static and kinetic sliding friction. Static friction is the friction before an object starts to slide. Kinetic friction is the friction when the object is actually moving or sliding.

Static friction and kinetic friction have different coefficient of friction values.

Independent of area for sliding hard surfaces
An interesting result of this equation is that in the case of sliding friction of hard surfaces, the friction is independent of the area of the surfaces. In other words, it is just as difficult to move a 1 square-cm object as a 1 square-meter object, if they both are pressed to the surface with the same amount of force.

This is not intuitive. You would think that there is more friction when the surfaces are larger, but the friction equation states otherwise. You can verify this fact with experiments."


I'd imagine the MX-6 clutch would work better but it would be because of its larger diameter having slightly more mechanical advantage rather than the increase in area.
Every third grader knows that the coefficient of friction is not independent of pressure and generally decreases as pressure increases. In other words, the friction/pressure curve is not a straight line relationship. So if you're going to throw around Latin letters and equal signs, you'd better know how they work.

And furthermore, before you go spinning off on me, I'm just ******* with you.
Thucydides is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2010, 02:49 PM   #28
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,011
Total Cats: 7
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by j-po View Post
I Got a set for MX6 and did some rough measurements on the pressure plate with some weights and a dial gauge. It turned out to have an equal spring rate as the Miata. Also spring geometry measured very similar, apart from the obvious finger length. Both were Exedy/Daikin clutch (DK stampings). I do not see how I could have used the MX6 PP with the Miata TOB which falls right through. Anyway, the larger disc is a nice find!

therieldeal, you seem to be doing some interesting clutch work. I would love to hear the toyota pickup truck disc story.
Are you using a 1.8L throwout? Mine worked just fine with plenty of contact with the fingers.
lazzer408 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2010, 03:15 AM   #29
Newb
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Scandinavia
Posts: 43
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lazzer408 View Post
Are you using a 1.8L throwout? Mine worked just fine with plenty of contact with the fingers.
Yes, genuine Mazda part. I thought they were the same for both 1.6 and 1.8. However, I see my pressure plate is not the same as yours. There must be a difference in finger length. Mine is manufactured by Daikin clutch and looks more similar to the Miata one. Search ebay for "MZC 543" to see what I mean. What company manufactured yours?

Last edited by j-po; 09-09-2010 at 04:31 AM.
j-po is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2010, 08:51 PM   #30
Newb
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 6
Total Cats: 0
Default

For what it's worth all Clutch kits from NAPA, Autozone and Advance are all made by Perfection Clutch as of right now. Doesn't mean some old stuff isn't in circulation still or some may have outside sources, like independent NAPAs. Napa used to sell Exedy but every big chain is starting to sell the same stuff in different boxes. Quality is going down along with the price on some of this stuff.
shaggy13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2010, 10:20 AM   #31
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,011
Total Cats: 7
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shaggy13 View Post
For what it's worth all Clutch kits from NAPA, Autozone and Advance are all made by Perfection Clutch as of right now. Doesn't mean some old stuff isn't in circulation still or some may have outside sources, like independent NAPAs. Napa used to sell Exedy but every big chain is starting to sell the same stuff in different boxes. Quality is going down along with the price on some of this stuff.
My Autozone kit had a DK set in it.
lazzer408 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2010, 01:38 AM   #32
Junior Member
iTrader: (4)
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 252
Total Cats: 0
Default

I have been playing with KL's for years and will be doing the clutch on my 2000 shortly, I am curious to hear if anyone ever went with the MX6/KL Pressure plate and how it worked out.

Having a better disc is nice but if I was going to buy a clutch kit and only use the disc that still leaves the pressure plate as a weak point.

Just curious.
Cross is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2010, 08:19 AM   #33
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,011
Total Cats: 7
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cross View Post
I have been playing with KL's for years and will be doing the clutch on my 2000 shortly, I am curious to hear if anyone ever went with the MX6/KL Pressure plate and how it worked out.

Having a better disc is nice but if I was going to buy a clutch kit and only use the disc that still leaves the pressure plate as a weak point.

Just curious.
I think someone mentioned the KL PP having the same clamping force as the BP PP but on the KL clutch set I had the PP springs were physically thicker. The BP is 116ft-lbs torque and the KL (Probe GT) is 156ft-lbs. fwiw. If anything, the KL PP may have a higher clamping force.

I think the main advantage to the KL clutch set is mainly due to the increaded surface area of the disc. It will stay cooler, last longer, hold more torque, and with less fade based on the surface area. Being larger in diameter also put more friction surface outward from center which can transfer more torque for any given area.

If your trying to upgrade all your weakest links then you will need to upgrade every weak component. That shopping list has no end. This swap is more for the owner who needs a clutch because it is worn and this is a way to get a better performing clutch for less using over the counter parts. It's not necessarily an upgrade for someone wanting the best performance. There are better options out there but they cost significantly more and it wont be in stock.

I did it. It worked. It performed and felt better with much less fade then stock clutch on a turbo Miata. That's all I can say about it.

Hey Cross. Why not just put a KL in the 5. =)
lazzer408 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2010, 09:01 AM   #34
Newb
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Scandinavia
Posts: 43
Total Cats: 0
Default

I did machining work to get it to fit. Seems there are various versions out there. Take your chances.
j-po is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2010, 01:08 PM   #35
Junior Member
iTrader: (4)
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 252
Total Cats: 0
Default

Trust me I already have a KLG4 sitting here, I am going to make a custom Intake Manifold and then see about putting it in.... problem is the boost bug keeps getting me and I wanna go faster right this second not in 6 months when I have finished figuring out how to make this work lol.
Cross is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2010, 01:33 PM   #36
Elite Member
iTrader: (9)
 
TurboTim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chesterfield, NJ
Posts: 6,484
Total Cats: 248
Default

If I keep my miata I will probably end up putting a KL in it. Man that'd sound fun
TurboTim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2010, 06:01 PM   #37
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,011
Total Cats: 7
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by j-po View Post
I did machining work to get it to fit. Seems there are various versions out there. Take your chances.
What did you have to machine? The PP bolt patterns are the same. So is the spline. Can you back your statement with some details?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboTim View Post
If I keep my miata I will probably end up putting a KL in it. Man that'd sound fun
I'm already in love with the KL. The first time I drove the sand rail I thought that motor needed to be in something light and rwd. Then boosted.
lazzer408 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2010, 06:09 AM   #38
Newb
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Scandinavia
Posts: 43
Total Cats: 0
Default

No problem. The MX6 clutch disc with its larger diameter center stub and more outwards protruding center metal plate looked like they would not work with the Miata PP and TOB (The center stub of the Miata disc is clearly made thin enough to pass into the TOB). The Miata TOB also would not work with the MX6 PP, it fell right through. So I had to use the larger MX6 TOB which required sleeving the transmission front cover shaft to a larger diameter. Also the more protruding fingers of the MX6 PP and thicker TOB required machining the fork pivot point down as well as extending the cylindrical portion of the transmission front cover further back by machining. Also ground the fork a bit wider to fit the TOB & modified the TOB.

Anyway, parts are ready and look like they will fit now. I have not had time to install them yet. If I had to do it all over again, I wouldn't. I'd just bolt in a performance clutch designed for the Miata. Now of course I can use cheap MX6 replacement parts fairly easily which was my original intention.

How knows, maybe I am wrong about the Miata PP and TOB and they would have fitted after all. I did not feel like trying and failing by having the TOB catching onto the disc center stub or the PP fingers catching onto the disc springs. It would also have been a shame to waste the new PP. Your PP looks different. I assume that may work better. As I said, take your chances.
j-po is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2010, 09:15 PM   #39
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,011
Total Cats: 7
Default

Which throwout did you use? 1.6L? All the 1.8L throwouts I had (all the same) contacted the KL PP fingers with no problems. The 1.6L throwout bearing won't make contact with the fingers but the body of the bearing is large enough that it wouldn't 'fall right through'. If the finger opening was large enough for a 1.6L throwout to fall through, the MX6 throwout wouldn't work either. I wish I hadn't thrown out all the parts I had. I could have taken side by side photos of the 3 throwouts. Maybe you don't have a KL PP. Wouldn't be the first time I've seen the wrong clutch parts in the box.

Quote:
Originally Posted by j-po View Post
No problem. The MX6 clutch disc with its larger diameter center stub and more outwards protruding center metal plate looked like they would not work with the Miata PP and TOB (The center stub of the Miata disc is clearly made thin enough to pass into the TOB). The Miata TOB also would not work with the MX6 PP, it fell right through. So I had to use the larger MX6 TOB which required sleeving the transmission front cover shaft to a larger diameter. Also the more protruding fingers of the MX6 PP and thicker TOB required machining the fork pivot point down as well as extending the cylindrical portion of the transmission front cover further back by machining. Also ground the fork a bit wider to fit the TOB & modified the TOB.

Anyway, parts are ready and look like they will fit now. I have not had time to install them yet. If I had to do it all over again, I wouldn't. I'd just bolt in a performance clutch designed for the Miata. Now of course I can use cheap MX6 replacement parts fairly easily which was my original intention.

How knows, maybe I am wrong about the Miata PP and TOB and they would have fitted after all. I did not feel like trying and failing by having the TOB catching onto the disc center stub or the PP fingers catching onto the disc springs. It would also have been a shame to waste the new PP. Your PP looks different. I assume that may work better. As I said, take your chances.
lazzer408 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2010, 05:21 AM   #40
Newb
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Scandinavia
Posts: 43
Total Cats: 0
Default

I didn't think anyone could understand I meant the whole body of the bearing fell right through the PP. I should have made that clear. Anyway, I used the MX6 TOB as stated in my previous post.

You are saying 1.6 and 1.8 have different TOBs? The only TOB I can find is Mazda part number B622-16-510 which fits both. Could you please show some evidence there are indeed different TOBs?

Getting the wrong PP crossed my mind too but then again, there are other vendors on ebay showing pictures of the PP I have. Thus I suggested there may be variations of the theme.
Search ebay for MZC 543 to see what you do not want to get.

Even if you managed to get a long finger PP the thicker stub on the disc looks like it may be a problem. There must be a reason why the Miata disc stub is so slender.
j-po is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
15x10 - 15x11 6UL @ 949 Racing emilio700 Wheels and Tires 151 06-02-2017 03:36 PM
3rd Time's a Charm...hopefully. zephyrusaurai Meet and Greet 2 09-28-2015 11:59 PM
VR6 to Miata Swap ScrapinMX5 Meet and Greet 8 09-28-2015 02:04 PM
First Miata Rhidell Meet and Greet 1 09-27-2015 10:42 AM


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:10 PM.