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Boss Frog "Frog Arms" anybody has?
Curious if anybody has frog arms installed... Kind of wondering if they're worth investment?
http://www.949racing.com/ProductImag..._949Racing.jpg |
Jason C has I believe. Loves them.
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Ah cool. Looks and sounds like win but wanted to check before spending the $$. I'm told with high rate springs on NAs you'll get a lot of awkward chassis flexing..
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Subscribed. Definetely worth asking about! I'm tired of my floppy chassis. FM rails didn't make a substantial difference (no butterfly). Don't know if going with bolt ons like the frame rails, frog arms, etc. are the way to go vs. seam welding.
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Wagliardo had some installed at one point. He ditched them and has gone with door bars and hasn't looked back. But, we'll let him chime in.
A few have stated that frame rails with door bars are a little better when it comes to expansion joints in the roads, doesn't shimmy through the car. |
Originally Posted by y8s
(Post 418595)
Jason C has I believe. Loves them.
I was so tired of the chassis shimmy I was gonna sell the car and buy a Stook, but the door bars satisfied my hankering for chassis rigidity. I'm still waiting for someone to definitively say the Froggies reduce chassis shimmy. When that happens, I'll buy 'em. So far people say it makes the steering or turn in feel tighter. |
Cool, Thanks for the input Jason!
I've heard TONS of good things about the door bars. A friend just built a big tubing bender and was obsessed with the idea of making and mass marketing some door bars on the cheap but never got around to it.. Next on the list to buy! Sounds like I'll wait on the frog arms with you. |
Mazda Performance Parts: Hard Dog Bolt-In Door Bar for 1990-1997 Miata
Those the door bars you guys are talking about? I know I'm still noobing, but the ad mentions nothing about "sold as pairs" it only says $275 quantity 1. That's gotta be for a pair... right? |
Those are the ones.... and are for the pair. At least that is what Gary sells them for at Track Dog.
Door bars plus frame rails - without butterfly attachment - feels exactly like a cage without the added weight. Turn in is still just as crisp - but is noticeably different over stock. |
Yes them's the ones I've got (goodwin racing link above).
Search for my youtube miata door bar vid. Pls. excuse the ugly talent, he was walking by and I offered him a donut as payment. Note, it took me a while to find a reclinable race seat that fit with the door bars. I've now got one from Memory Fab from the Bay Area. |
nice jammies jay sonn.
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Apparently your door bar video took Youtube down! It's out everywhere at the moment. I want to see how tough it is getting in and out with those!
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I can tell you it is not difficult at all. It is harder to get out of an Ultrashield seat because of the side bolster. This is a "preference" thing I guess.
I wish I would have installed these first, but I installed a "bolt-in" cage instead. That is a pain to get out of. ;) Give and take relationship at this point. |
I need something for my current miata....since i took the HT off the thing flexes like crazy, i hear my doors and a-pillars rubbing like crazy....maybe I need to get some frame rails or alike.
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Boss Frog Frog Arms Installation Thread - MX-5 Miata Forum
Initial impressions: It's no illusion, these things do exactly what Boss Frog claims- they massively stiffen up the front end of the car. I've only driven them about 20 miles so far but what used to be noticeable cowl shake over bumps is now just a minor cowl vibration. The whole front end of the car feels more like a German car, just stiff, it goes where you point it without hesitation. Will post up more long term results as i put more miles on the car.. but i am definitely very impressed so far. I hit a few bumps hard on purpose , ones that used to induce scary amounts of cowl shake, and now what was visible movement just looks like a mild vibration- think of hitting a steel rod with a hammer. Update- Been driving around for 5 days now, maybe put about a hundred miles on the car since the Frog Arms were installed.. I have to say- if you are thinking about getting these things, just do it. The front end difference is really amazing! I really was not expecting them to make such a big difference but truly. The front end just feels like it is forged from a single solid piece of metal now, the reduction in cowl shake is quite dramatic, the whole front just feels "connected".. I would recommend these to anyone! |
Maybe we could get a GB going on these?
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Originally Posted by deliverator
(Post 418872)
maybe we could get a gb going on these?
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Originally Posted by deliverator
(Post 418872)
Maybe we could get a GB going on these?
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Yes, and its a burnt plate with a few pieces of flat bar welded to it, painted green.
Maybe we could get a 'cheap' version that's not powder coated and doesn't include hardware. With all the crap I've removed from my miata, I have some much freaking hardware in my nuts&bolts drawer that I've begun to throw some of it away. |
Talked to John Wag today about frog arms and door bars..
He had just the frog arms on a 1996 and said it made a huge difference, especially over railroad crossings and the such. Cowl shake is eliminated, but suggested the first thing I buy is the door bars. Also door bars clear factory seats very well, but race seats are a lot closer. Several fixed position race seats were mentioned from Corbeau along with Sparco fit without a problem!
Originally Posted by deliverator
(Post 418872)
Maybe we could get a GB going on these?
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Just like the frame rails, can someone knock these off for a group buy?!? Curly?
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I'd love to but I've never heard of my company doing anything like this before, and I doubt they'd go for it. Like I said you could knock down the price if they got rid of the lightening holes (if they're added after the burnt/lasered plate, if its all in the same operation, it wouldn't save any money), if they didn't powder coat them, if they didn't include hardware, and maybe even if they didn't drill them, but provided the necessary dimensions for us to drill them at home. With such a hidden piece, a can of spray paint and some old dirty bolts would be just as good as what they're selling.
All that being said, I'd rather go with the door bars before these. Whoa, just noticed they're slotted. If they're milled out, these guys are selling these pretty cheap. If they're laser/burned out, it wouldn't save us any money. |
Whats the diff btw getting these, or say going to lowes and getting some square bar and welding it in the exact same spots along both sides.
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Damn.. I could powder coat things that size on the SUPER SUPER cheap, but that'd add extra shipping costs to the products.. :(
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Originally Posted by neogenesis2004
(Post 418931)
Whats the diff btw getting these, or say going to lowes and getting some square bar and welding it in the exact same spots along both sides.
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I just did a very quick-n-dirty estimate on eMachineShop, using 24"x20" as the major outside dimension and putting only the mounting holes (not the lightening holes) into them. Assuming that the base plate is the same for the left & right sides, to make these out of 3/16" thick 4130 steel, and using laser cutting (the cheapest process available for this material) they'd cost $290 a pair for 10 pairs, $250 a pair for 25 pairs, $231 a pair for 50 pairs, and $210 a pair for 100 pairs.
And that's before you weld on the reinforcing pieces. Seriously- unless you happen to own a CNC cutting or milling machine, $200 a pair for these is just staggeringly cheap. |
will try to setup a group buy.
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talked to bill @ miataroadster and he will inquire about discounts. will start new thread when have more info.
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Originally Posted by curly
(Post 418937)
Technically nothing, but the triangle plate behind the bars is going to add A LOT of stiffness over just bars bolted between the mounting points. Most people haven't blown the kind of money we have on turbo systems and new diffs, so they don't mind spending a little more for something complete, pretty, and a little piece of mind that it'll definitely fit.
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Originally Posted by UrbanSoot
(Post 418959)
talked to bill @ miataroadster and he will inquire about discounts. will start new thread when have more info.
Don't really mind paying 200 for a pair of those, cause I think they're probably worth every penny.. but I just blew my wad on coilovers... I is broke.. |
I been wondering about these for a while, was gonna wait till I had some cash before researching. Glad to see I'm not alone in thinking they'd help a bit
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FWIW I will chime in that I am also very pleased with my door bars. The chassis is so much stiffer after installing them and the roll bar; It was immediately very apparent. Though they do make it a little harder to get in and out of the car, one gets used to it, and it is well worth the tradeoff IMO. Hard Dog M2 Double Diagonal, Hard Dog Door Bars.
It is good to know Sparco seats fit with door bars. I have stock seats in now but that may not last. It seems to me that those plates would work primarily by stiffening up the shock/spring tower for the front suspension. Wouldn't a triangulated brace (tying together the two towers and the firewall) do much of the same thing? |
Originally Posted by ZX-Tex
(Post 419010)
It is good to know Sparco seats fit with door bars. I have stock seats in now but that may not last. |
Artie, Sorry I have poor short term memory so I don't recall 100% what seat he was talking about..
I know for a fact he said the Corbeau Forza seat, and there is a Sparco thats almost identical to the Forza which also fits.. |
how do the door bars attach? ie: do you have to have an HD bar? I've got a Boss Frog Clearview...
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You do not have to have a roll bar to use the bars. They compliment one very well, but not needed to install.
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I can't imaging those things would be nearly as effective as a triangulated strut tower brace for reducing the twist. And I'm talking about twist from the firewall forward- which isn't the big problem. That lies in the center of the car- which is why the door bars make such a big difference... like the hard top.
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Yeah. It's pretty amazing what a difference that flimsy piece of fiberglass called a hard top does for stiffening the car. Makes you realize that with the right triangulation it wouldn't take much to stiffen things up. The trouble is where. Gotta be safe and not impede entry/exit.
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From the Boss Frog site:
Why don’t you offer Bolt-in Door Bars? We have looked at this feature carefully, and decided not to make these because; 1. They do not increase the lateral strength or stiffness of the chassis, so will do nothing to improve the handling or feel of the car while adding extra weight. 2. They do not significantly improve the impact resistance against a side collision or rollover. This is because the bar is rather long, and only anchored into thin body metal behind the seat and at the floor after a 90-degree bend. These are not solid structural mounting points, so a side force will simply bend the mounting plates and the bar will roll inward toward the driver. 3. The door bar may potentially cause more injury than protection, because in a side impact, the bar could easily be pushed directly into the driver’s hip. |
#1 is just flat out incorrect. Clearly they stiffen the chassis, empirically and analytically.
#2 and #3 are arguable. A non-reclining style seat or a little padding would certainly take care of #3. The door bars stiffened the chassis more than the hard top does. I have both. Others have reported they make more of a difference than adding frame rails. |
#2 is partially correct. Used with a Hard Dog roll bar, behind the seat it is bolted to the roll bar, body metal and backing plate. That's more than just thin body metal. I would like to see it more like the Kirk bars where it drops down more.
On m.net Emilio at 949 mentioned introducing door bars to sell a couple years ago. Never happened. Never heard why. I've seen a number of Mustang and BMW guys at track days with bolt in door bars. So easy to take in and out they remove them when they aren't at the track. Of course they don't have our floppy chassis. |
Now that you mention it I remember reading that thread on m.net about 949 making door bars. There was also a decent debate about their merits and safety. I considered the 949 bars but ended up getting the Hard Dog bars (and roll bar) because I was ready to get something in.
The front end of the door bars bolts in right next to the frame rail and has a backing plate. It is not ideal (like welding to the frame rail) but I think it is probably a pretty rigid force transfer connection between the two. At any rate it really seems to work well. |
In for more pics of the door bar install. Anyone have any? Especially the rear point.
--Alex |
Originally Posted by AlexO35
(Post 420624)
In for more pics of the door bar install. Anyone have any? Especially the rear point.
--Alex |
I may pick up the frog arms soon. I've been thinking about them since I got the car and just haven't gotten them for some reason. Anything to make my car more livable for daily driving will be worth it right now. My cowl shake has gotten worse and worse. I may also go ahead and do some seam welding also. I hate having to pucker up over every little bump in fear my car is going to wobble in half. At least thats how it feels. I've already done the suspension once but will be doing it again. Going with FM springs and FCM mounts this time around, along with adjustable sway bar link since the stock ones are binding with the FM bars.
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Originally Posted by ZX-Tex
(Post 420570)
The front end of the door bars bolts in right next to the frame rail and has a backing plate.
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I am not sure about frame rail interference. It depends on how wide they are. I'll snap some pictures and post them up.
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Thanks! Would be appreciated!
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Frame rail interference could be taken care of by the generous application of a drill bit.
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Anyone have a feeling/sense on the difference between adding this stuff on an NB verses an NA? Do you get the same gains?
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Originally Posted by AlexO35
(Post 420624)
In for more pics of the door bar install. Anyone have any? Especially the rear point.
--Alex |
FWIW, I've had the Boss Frog Arms for a little over a year. Cornering input is much more responsive, and the cowl shake is virtually eliminated.
For people installing them on NBs: I told Bill at Miataroadster that the mounting points do not exactly line up and may need to be bored out. I don't know if there was a revision to fix the mounting problems on the NB, but it required be to bored out further to mount the arms where the door hinges are bolted on. To bore them out, I used a dremel with a tungsten carbide filing bit (costs about thirteen bucks at a hardware store). After grinding it down (take a while cause the mounting points are thick and "doubled up") I blasted it with paint for rust protection. |
I remember seeing a vid covering entry and exit, but haven't seen anything on the mounting. There's some pics on m.net, but again, no real mounting point pics that I found. I was searching at work though, so I can't really say I was thorough.
--Alex |
Photos of the driver's side door bar from several angles are here. Passenger side is just a mirror image of the driver's side sans pedals.
Picasa Web Albums - John - Door bars There is more room between the front door bar brace plate and the frame than I remember. In fact it is closer to the outboard edge (door sill) than the frame rail. So it looks to me like there is plenty of room for rails. |
Talking about the arms:
I would remove my fender to show you guys what im talking about, but that requires me to pull my side skirts too, and quite frankly, I don't really want to deal with that. My sideskirts are being held up by screws and double-sided 3M tape |
Thanks for the pics. So the rear attatches to the rollbar?
--Alex |
Yep. The door bar and roll bar share the same bolts and backing plate.
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Wow, is there room to rest your foot on the dead pedal like that, or does the car stop being a commuter and convert entirely to track machine when you put them on?
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Thanks for the pictures! Same question as Abe, how's the use of the dead pedal?
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No problem with the dead pedal for me, not nearly as bad as it looks from the pictures. It is just the angle of the shot.
My car is a daily driver so if they were a PIA to the point where it was only bearable for the track I would take them out :) |
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