Brake setups for track days? HPDE's not Competitive Racing
 

Since I am doing a major rework of my 91 at this point, I am starting to wonder about upgrading the brakes as well. Im shooting for a 200whp max goal if I go FI. Either way I am throwing in a modified 1.8 with MS so even if I stay NA I should be faster after just the engine swap.

I already have the 1.8 upgraded brakes and running Hawk HPS pads. They have been working great for the past three track days, but I am sure that if I do end up FI i will need more brakes.

What do the occasional track day guys run for brakes? If I can get away with the 1.8 Calipers and rotors, what pads should I use? If an upgrade is needed what setups seem to hold up well on track but are still streetable.

Since I only track the car 2-3 times a year I am willing to have a seperate set of rotors/pads for track and street use.

I cannot believe HPS are working at all for you. i fade mine easily at autox.

I just got some stainless brake lines and Carbotech XP8s for my first track day.

I think Hawk HP + are the minimum recommended for track days.

Sport brakes may get the job done, but you're going to need a pretty serious pad. They did not come closeto working for me. I'm starting to think there's a design flaw in sport brakes after what I did to these pads

If you are fine on HPS pads, stop worrying about your pads and focus on your driving.

i run Hawk blue on the front and stock on the rears, works well for us.

Once, again I guess I will have to go shopping in the "Huge Hairy Ball Department" first before I toutch my car for any mods. Seems like every question I have is followed by "If you were a man" or some crap like that. LOL

Its so funny how my last two instructors have been telling me to use the brakes less to maintain as much momentum as possible with the little gutless 1.6 I have.
I have driven other cars on track to the point that the brakes couldn't handle all the power thrown at them in the straights and I do not like having to deal with brake fade. I like safety margains, which might be related to me working as an engineer at a nuclear power plant.
After I switched to HPS and proper rotors and fluid I have not had any problems on track days. YES TRACK DAYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HPDE's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NOT freaking competitive , let me see what I can brake off my car next racing days.

No matter how you drive, the harder you push and the more power unleashed the higher your wear rates and failure rates will be on most parts. This is why I am looking at which parts and areas to address before increasing power in order to maintain a balanced car. I have driven a 65 Shelby roadster on track and it was the most fun I have ever had with my pants on, till you had to stop the damn thing. A balanced miata with 100hp is more fun to me than a 450hp rocket.

I go to track days to have fun and push my car, not kill it. I don't have anything to prove, I just want to enjoy my car and learn new tecniques to get faster and safer. I will not baby it by any means. The last club I got to run with had half the instructors running in my run group, almost all of them running porches. I had no chance in the straights but I could out brake most of them and even maintain enough momentum through the twisty parts that it took a good bit of the long straights for them to pass me. Yes, I know it is all relative, it depends on the size and material properties of their balls as well.

I mainly want to get a little more power because I have been spoiled by the VW 1.8T in the Jettas I have owned. Even though they are puny little engines compared to what could be done with FI I love having the added torque in a 4-banger.
I don't know if everyone that responds to my questions only lives to race but, I want to build my car to have some more fun on the street and obviously more fun on track, but not to the point that I am going to kill the balance of the Miata and limit what I can do with the car on track without spending $10 000!

Rmember that your tire choice has a lot to do with how well your brakes work. One might easily fade HPS at AutoX with DOT-R tires while another may be just fine on a track with far less aggressive tires (like Falken FK452s)..also depends on the track.

I know at Road Atlanta, my sport brakes with HP+ pads and ATE super blue I was able to get fade pretty easilty for 10a when trying to slow from 130mph 50mph and at Talladega Grand Prix(much smaller track) I barely got fade. I finally got some stainless lines, new HP+ pads and fresh fluid in there and couldn't fade the brakes at TGP the last time I went out there. Mind you this was all on Hankook Z211 C50 compound slicks. If I had been on a more streetable tire like Azenis, Z1 SS, RS-2..I probably wouldn't have had any problems at all.

But for fuck's sake, I have since installed a Brembo GT kit consisting of 12.5" rotors and 4 piston calipers :D

Im running Falken Azinis tires as well. How noisy are the HP+ pads on the miatas? I had a set on my old Jetta and the damn things would squeel like a deranged pig whenever you applied the brakes, no matter what I did. They worked awesome and would quiet down on track but unless they were hot they were unbearable on the street. Granted if I had a set of rotors and HP+ pads for track use only I wouldn't have to worry as much.

Would it be worth going to HP+'s or just go for BLUES? Is there a big difference in rotor and pad wear between the two?

Now for the rotors. When I upgraded to the 1.8 stuff I was told to just use the napa plain jane rotors since that is what the Spec guys use. Would I see any noticable gains to go to a good quality slotted or drilled or both rotor? Can you really expect to gain 30% in performance like most people claim? I honestly don't mind using the NAPA rotors, they are so cheap that it isnt a problem putting new rotors on after every third track day or so. I also like having a spare set in the toolbox so if I do kill a set on track I can easily swap in new stuff.

I'd say some napa rotors and porterfield race pads. They're the cheapest if you ignore hawks blues, which apparently eat rotors. I was on street tires, NA, and hawk HP+ and they worked fine, no squealing. Btw, the porterfields will squeal when cold, hence the extra rotors I mentioned. If you get carbotechs, they won't wear the rotors or squeal as much but you'll put needless street wear on the pads.

Thanks for the info. I think I will get the stainless lines and some better pads for now and see how that works.

I'll second what Curly said.

With stock horsepower you need to work on momentum. That's why the instructor has you off the brakes as much as possible. You need to be smooth to maintain speed. Your not working the pads much. When you go FI it will be a whole different ball game. For me the EBC reds were just fine pre-FI. Post? Gone in 3 track sessions, not days, sessions.

When you go FI first upgrade to an appropriate pad and maybe a couple simple ducts to help with cooling the fronts. If you find that's not sufficient then consider moving to big boy parts. Plenty of threads here with pad discussions also.

For most guys here cheapo Napa rotors are dandy. You aren't going to see 30% gains from a similar slotted or drilled rotor. There are better rotors certainly but the gains are minimal and the price different doesn't justify it unless you are taking this VERY seriously or don't care about spending money. If you didn't care about money you'd just buy the goodwin big brake kit and we wouldn't be discussing options.

I'm using Carbotech xp10's front and xp8's rear. Cheapo Napa rotors. Fronts have been lasting maybe 3-4 track days with daily driving in between. Rears 5-6. Rotors 2 times that long. For me thats a set of rotors maybe once a year or a little longer. Pads maybe twice a year.

FYI - Spec Miatas run stock-sized brakes with race pads and they have no issues with brake fade.

Yep. I was surpassing my old car's "front-stretch top speed" on corner exit of the preceding corner, with the new suspension and motor in the newest iteration.

You'll know when its time for big brakes.

Ill start with upgraded pads and see how things go from there. Will be taking baby steps then, till stuff starts becomming innefective. I just wanted to make sure I was not attempting to start with a setup that is known to fail.
I can't imagine how much fun you guys with lots of power are having on track. Yes I am learning all I can from all the car I have now, but it has to be fun to be able to hold as much speed as I do in a turn but then be able to shoot out down the straight as well!!!
Hell even 50% power increase at this point in time would be a blast. I just can't afford to spend as much on a proper brake upgrade kit as a cheap turbo at this point. I bet the pads for those huge brakes don't come cheap either.

Pads are actually a little less expensive. Rotor costs will bankrupt you, though.

Is it worth installing brake ducts? I am taking all winter to redo as much on the car as I can. I am planning on doing some sheetmetal work to come up with proper radiator ducting and ducts for oil cooler/intercooler. It wouldn't be too much work to add some ductwork or at least the hardware to support ducting for track use. I probably would leave the ducts off on the street though.

Oh really? :vash::bang::eek:
v3 rotor:https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/att...0092009218.jpg

Needs more ducting, boiling Castrol SRF.

Outch!

Yeah, but somebody posted on Miata.net that he runs them on the street with NO ISSUES WHATSOEVER, so obviously it's a you problem. ;)

In all seriousness, do you have photos of what it did to the pads? I'd be interested in learning more about it.

Steet :ne: Track, but you knew that right? More like street = 1/track or 1-track or something.

+1. I couldn't even get away with HPS on the street.

I was sarcastically fucking around when I posted that. That's why I included the ";)". It was a reference to a thread about the sport brakes, hustler pointed out that he had issues with them, and then another guy came in and sung their praises- but that other guy never tracks any of his cars (although he frequently brags about how many miles he racks up on the highway), and really, if you're not tracking, there's no reason to upgrade the brakes in the first place, so...

The problem is the manufacturers rape us for the rings and hats to fit 15" wheels. Any 6x6.25 ring is double or triple the cost of the same thing in 8x7. You can buy 11.75" rings for around $30. Same rings in 11" are over $80. Bastards.

Ducting is key. I still crack Corrado rotors, but the ducting means I can run ATE and not worry about boiling it off.

I'm trying to run blues with ducting on my sport brakes next weekend. If pads are only going to last 2-3 sessions, I'm buying the cheap crap.

Pics of said ducting? Inlet where? Diameter tube? Aiming how and where? I've got some 3" coming my way.

Pics, bitch - I just had this come in. Awaiting 3" tube.

Does anyone have pics of installed ducts? I am interested in how/where you would route the ducting.
I was also wondering if you have to be concerned with channeling water directly to the brakes if the ducts are used on the street? If so I am sure you can easily block the ducts or remove them and only use them on track.

How do you fry pads on the street? I can see riding your brakes through the mountains instead of downshifting, but thats the drivers fault and not the brakes.

How often do you do 100+mph-30mph deccelleations on the street? I have drive veryconservatively when it comes to brakes. I have always felt if you drive right with a manual transmission, brakes are mostly needed in emergencies and when coming to complete stops. Once again, on track its a completely different story. It's not like our cars weigh several tonnes and take massive brake forces to slow down.

Hell even doing a top speed run to full stop can't be that bad, unless you do it repeatedly, and why would you do that unless you confused the street for your Need for Speed game. LOL.

The fast guys in spec Miata don’t use much brake They just lift and turn for allot of the corners or just a light tap. I realized this after trying to drive a stock powered car fast at the track after being use to around 3 times as much power. It was dificult for me to re learn to enter corners without using any brakes or to perform downshifts into corners without using too much brake and coming off the corner dead slow with no power to accelerate.

When I first started doing HPDE’s I was really hard on brakes. Cracked corrado rotors and even rear rotors, tried pad compounds that fade or wouldn’t even last a full event etc. After years of practice and lowering lap times I am much easier on my brakes now I think. I fixed my brakes however with my own brake kit. 11.75” Wilwood DynaPro Mini cooper kit in the front (Yes it is pretty much a bolt on for a Miata more brake than the FM goodwin kit and cheaper). 11.44” two piece in the rear Cobalt friction XR2 pads for the track. Never worry about not having brakes and they last many track days even with 350 hp. This is the most brake I think I have seen anybody stuff into a 15” wheel yet.

My brakes => http://www.cardomain.com/ride/737924/2

Bob

I am a total douche for spending so much time looking at all this stuff and never before seeing Bob's cardomain page. All this time I thought his build was secret. Those dynapros are teh shit.

I run Hawk Blues/HP+ on my MSM with good luck. Might try HT-10 next in the fronts. I heard the Blues will ruin your wheel's finish if it gets wet. Carbotech XP10/8 is another good combo.

I have a set for sale, please buy them :cry:

I'm running blues for one more "cycle" becuase the carbotech's warped pretty badly. Maybe they needed ducting, lol. I'm serious trying to not run Blues with my gorgeous, bronze 6ULs. If I must, they'll be sprayed with Pam before I bolt them up.

Hmmmm....never thought of using Pam before. Does Pam contain Teflon?

luckily for me, most local tracks (willow springs big track + streets of willow, buttonwillow) dont require much braking at all. i get away with less aggressive pads that i can still use on street with minimum amount of noise, dusting, and heating up.

Pam can't contain teflon, since it's used for cooking.

Someone buy my BBK for Christmas.

bob,
Aren't you the guy who drives the car to and from the track? I hope to join your reign of "driving to the track, dominating, and driving home" terror. I also see a turbo 323 back there. :cool:

edit: You're car, work, and track rep are quite respectable.

When I was at his house there were 4 of them on his property lol.

I think he should sell me one ;) I tried to buy one off a guy locally that delivers pizza in it, he said he bought it for 600 bucks and is never selling it. Where the fuck do you find these things, let alone for 600 bucks?

A couple track days ago a guy in a gtx broke a diff on the backside. He shut down our day for 1/2 an hour since he wouldn't let they tow him off. Didn't want to be towed and screw up the 4wd system even worse. They had to trailer him off.

Just found this:
Triple-R: Dedicated brake ducting

Are RX7 hubs the same/would this fit?

Alright, I figured this was a good place to dump my retarded question.

So, what advantage save increased mass/cooling area do the Corrado rotors in the M-Tuned brake kit offer compared to just the stock 1.8 set? I understand pad size stays the same, so the overall friction area remains equal yes?

The fact that the rotor diameter is larger means more braking torque, all else being equal. Geometrically (not thermally speaking), everything else is the same.

Ahh, stupid me. I took dynamics, should have thought of that much. Thank you.

If you want to know more, there is a good book called "The Brake Handbook" or something like that. When I designed the braking system on our FSAE car it was my bible.

So someone gave me a set of front RX7 brake calipers for free. They look to me to be a little bigger than dynalites, but not by much. They weigh less than stock calipers as far as I can tell and have 4 pistons. I'm seriously considering a retrofit. It really doesn't look like it'd be impossible. Rx7 Calipers plus corrado rotors would do just fine for me I think at the track.

Contact TravisR or Savington from Track side engineering, there might be a market for brackets for these calipers, they can be had for very cheap.

I think there was a member that fitted a set, I want to say it was reddroptop...the guy with a mirrored image of his classic red in his sigline.

It would have been almost a year ago.

Wilwood Disc Brakes 120-3277 - Wilwood Dynalite Series Brake Calipers - Overview - SummitRacing.com

beat that. Savington's kit is the way to go.

Mazda RX7 Turbo II/GTU Aluminum 4pot calipers w/pads:eBay Motors (item 160359401320 end time Oct-29-09 21:01:01 PDT)

Two for the price of one. Found some cheaper ones but they were dirtier, and I figured they wouldn't be good enough for you. I'm just saying they can be had for cheap, at least cheaper than brand new ones (free if you're wayne curr) and a mounting bracket should be similar.

^ That's a link to a single piston caliper. You want something like this:
4-piston caliper

Still a pretty good price.

That caliper is for unvented dics. Im sure Sav uses something else.

ease up bitches, I'm drunk as fuck.

12:30 on a Saturday afternoon? Really Hustler?

You can't drink all day if you don't start in the morning.

When you wrote "I finally got some stainless lines, new HP+ pads and fresh fluid in there and couldn't fade the brakes at TGP the last time I went out", did you mean to say something besides HP+? It looks like you said the only difference was your lines between the two setups. I didn't think lines made any difference besides "pedal feel".

Did you mean to say Hawk Blue instead of HP+? :confused:

Here is a good picture of the RX7 Calipers on an E30. Pretty common upgrade in their camp. I still haven't even eyeballed the calipers on the miata spindle so I'm not sure how they'll mount or if it will be easier or more difficult than this E30 application.

Here is the back of the caliper installed
Attachment 199340
And the bracket.
Attachment 199341

It cant possibly be that easy in a Miata.

Edit:

And another pic of them on a volvo.
http://www.dvs.net.au/mazbrak3.jpg