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Old 09-21-2009, 07:47 PM   #1
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Default Brake setups for track days? HPDE's not Competitive Racing

Since I am doing a major rework of my 91 at this point, I am starting to wonder about upgrading the brakes as well. Im shooting for a 200whp max goal if I go FI. Either way I am throwing in a modified 1.8 with MS so even if I stay NA I should be faster after just the engine swap.

I already have the 1.8 upgraded brakes and running Hawk HPS pads. They have been working great for the past three track days, but I am sure that if I do end up FI i will need more brakes.

What do the occasional track day guys run for brakes? If I can get away with the 1.8 Calipers and rotors, what pads should I use? If an upgrade is needed what setups seem to hold up well on track but are still streetable.

Since I only track the car 2-3 times a year I am willing to have a seperate set of rotors/pads for track and street use.
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Old 09-21-2009, 08:00 PM   #2
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I cannot believe HPS are working at all for you. i fade mine easily at autox.

I just got some stainless brake lines and Carbotech XP8s for my first track day.

I think Hawk HP + are the minimum recommended for track days.
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Old 09-21-2009, 08:51 PM   #3
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Sport brakes may get the job done, but you're going to need a pretty serious pad. They did not come closeto working for me. I'm starting to think there's a design flaw in sport brakes after what I did to these pads
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Old 09-21-2009, 08:58 PM   #4
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If you are fine on HPS pads, stop worrying about your pads and focus on your driving.
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Old 09-21-2009, 08:59 PM   #5
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i run Hawk blue on the front and stock on the rears, works well for us.
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Old 09-21-2009, 09:27 PM   #6
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Once, again I guess I will have to go shopping in the "Huge Hairy Ball Department" first before I toutch my car for any mods. Seems like every question I have is followed by "If you were a man" or some crap like that. LOL

Its so funny how my last two instructors have been telling me to use the brakes less to maintain as much momentum as possible with the little gutless 1.6 I have.
I have driven other cars on track to the point that the brakes couldn't handle all the power thrown at them in the straights and I do not like having to deal with brake fade. I like safety margains, which might be related to me working as an engineer at a nuclear power plant.
After I switched to HPS and proper rotors and fluid I have not had any problems on track days. YES TRACK DAYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HPDE's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NOT freaking competitive , let me see what I can brake off my car next racing days.

No matter how you drive, the harder you push and the more power unleashed the higher your wear rates and failure rates will be on most parts. This is why I am looking at which parts and areas to address before increasing power in order to maintain a balanced car. I have driven a 65 Shelby roadster on track and it was the most fun I have ever had with my pants on, till you had to stop the damn thing. A balanced miata with 100hp is more fun to me than a 450hp rocket.

I go to track days to have fun and push my car, not kill it. I don't have anything to prove, I just want to enjoy my car and learn new tecniques to get faster and safer. I will not baby it by any means. The last club I got to run with had half the instructors running in my run group, almost all of them running porches. I had no chance in the straights but I could out brake most of them and even maintain enough momentum through the twisty parts that it took a good bit of the long straights for them to pass me. Yes, I know it is all relative, it depends on the size and material properties of their ***** as well.

I mainly want to get a little more power because I have been spoiled by the VW 1.8T in the Jettas I have owned. Even though they are puny little engines compared to what could be done with FI I love having the added torque in a 4-banger.
I don't know if everyone that responds to my questions only lives to race but, I want to build my car to have some more fun on the street and obviously more fun on track, but not to the point that I am going to kill the balance of the Miata and limit what I can do with the car on track without spending $10 000!
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Old 09-22-2009, 12:43 PM   #7
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Rmember that your tire choice has a lot to do with how well your brakes work. One might easily fade HPS at AutoX with DOT-R tires while another may be just fine on a track with far less aggressive tires (like Falken FK452s)..also depends on the track.

I know at Road Atlanta, my sport brakes with HP+ pads and ATE super blue I was able to get fade pretty easilty for 10a when trying to slow from 130mph 50mph and at Talladega Grand Prix(much smaller track) I barely got fade. I finally got some stainless lines, new HP+ pads and fresh fluid in there and couldn't fade the brakes at TGP the last time I went out there. Mind you this was all on Hankook Z211 C50 compound slicks. If I had been on a more streetable tire like Azenis, Z1 SS, RS-2..I probably wouldn't have had any problems at all.

But for ****'s sake, I have since installed a Brembo GT kit consisting of 12.5" rotors and 4 piston calipers
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Old 09-22-2009, 01:15 PM   #8
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Im running Falken Azinis tires as well. How noisy are the HP+ pads on the miatas? I had a set on my old Jetta and the damn things would squeel like a deranged pig whenever you applied the brakes, no matter what I did. They worked awesome and would quiet down on track but unless they were hot they were unbearable on the street. Granted if I had a set of rotors and HP+ pads for track use only I wouldn't have to worry as much.

Would it be worth going to HP+'s or just go for BLUES? Is there a big difference in rotor and pad wear between the two?

Now for the rotors. When I upgraded to the 1.8 stuff I was told to just use the napa plain jane rotors since that is what the Spec guys use. Would I see any noticable gains to go to a good quality slotted or drilled or both rotor? Can you really expect to gain 30% in performance like most people claim? I honestly don't mind using the NAPA rotors, they are so cheap that it isnt a problem putting new rotors on after every third track day or so. I also like having a spare set in the toolbox so if I do kill a set on track I can easily swap in new stuff.
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Old 09-22-2009, 01:39 PM   #9
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I'd say some napa rotors and porterfield race pads. They're the cheapest if you ignore hawks blues, which apparently eat rotors. I was on street tires, NA, and hawk HP+ and they worked fine, no squealing. Btw, the porterfields will squeal when cold, hence the extra rotors I mentioned. If you get carbotechs, they won't wear the rotors or squeal as much but you'll put needless street wear on the pads.
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Old 09-22-2009, 01:52 PM   #10
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Thanks for the info. I think I will get the stainless lines and some better pads for now and see how that works.
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Old 09-22-2009, 04:20 PM   #11
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I'll second what Curly said.

With stock horsepower you need to work on momentum. That's why the instructor has you off the brakes as much as possible. You need to be smooth to maintain speed. Your not working the pads much. When you go FI it will be a whole different ball game. For me the EBC reds were just fine pre-FI. Post? Gone in 3 track sessions, not days, sessions.

When you go FI first upgrade to an appropriate pad and maybe a couple simple ducts to help with cooling the fronts. If you find that's not sufficient then consider moving to big boy parts. Plenty of threads here with pad discussions also.

For most guys here cheapo Napa rotors are dandy. You aren't going to see 30% gains from a similar slotted or drilled rotor. There are better rotors certainly but the gains are minimal and the price different doesn't justify it unless you are taking this VERY seriously or don't care about spending money. If you didn't care about money you'd just buy the goodwin big brake kit and we wouldn't be discussing options.

I'm using Carbotech xp10's front and xp8's rear. Cheapo Napa rotors. Fronts have been lasting maybe 3-4 track days with daily driving in between. Rears 5-6. Rotors 2 times that long. For me thats a set of rotors maybe once a year or a little longer. Pads maybe twice a year.
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Old 09-22-2009, 04:22 PM   #12
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FYI - Spec Miatas run stock-sized brakes with race pads and they have no issues with brake fade.
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Old 09-22-2009, 04:50 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
FYI - Spec Miatas run stock-sized brakes with race pads and they have no issues with brake fade.
Yep. I was surpassing my old car's "front-stretch top speed" on corner exit of the preceding corner, with the new suspension and motor in the newest iteration.

You'll know when its time for big brakes.
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Old 09-22-2009, 10:46 PM   #14
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Ill start with upgraded pads and see how things go from there. Will be taking baby steps then, till stuff starts becomming innefective. I just wanted to make sure I was not attempting to start with a setup that is known to fail.
I can't imagine how much fun you guys with lots of power are having on track. Yes I am learning all I can from all the car I have now, but it has to be fun to be able to hold as much speed as I do in a turn but then be able to shoot out down the straight as well!!!
Hell even 50% power increase at this point in time would be a blast. I just can't afford to spend as much on a proper brake upgrade kit as a cheap turbo at this point. I bet the pads for those huge brakes don't come cheap either.
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Old 09-22-2009, 10:48 PM   #15
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Pads are actually a little less expensive. Rotor costs will bankrupt you, though.
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Old 09-22-2009, 10:56 PM   #16
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Is it worth installing brake ducts? I am taking all winter to redo as much on the car as I can. I am planning on doing some sheetmetal work to come up with proper radiator ducting and ducts for oil cooler/intercooler. It wouldn't be too much work to add some ductwork or at least the hardware to support ducting for track use. I probably would leave the ducts off on the street though.
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Old 09-23-2009, 02:53 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
Pads are actually a little less expensive. Rotor costs will bankrupt you, though.
Oh really?
v3 rotor:

Needs more ducting, boiling Castrol SRF.
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Old 09-23-2009, 11:08 AM   #18
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Outch!
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Old 09-24-2009, 09:45 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hustler View Post
Sport brakes may get the job done, but you're going to need a pretty serious pad. They did not come closeto working for me. I'm starting to think there's a design flaw in sport brakes after what I did to these pads
Yeah, but somebody posted on Miata.net that he runs them on the street with NO ISSUES WHATSOEVER, so obviously it's a you problem.

In all seriousness, do you have photos of what it did to the pads? I'd be interested in learning more about it.
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Old 09-24-2009, 09:49 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_man View Post
Yeah, but somebody posted on Miata.net that he runs them on the street with NO ISSUES WHATSOEVER, so obviously it's a you problem.
Steet Track, but you knew that right? More like street = 1/track or 1-track or something.
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