Bushings! - Page 3 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


Suspension, Brakes, Drivetrain discuss the wondrous effects of boost and your miata...

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 11-11-2009, 11:45 PM   #41
Elite Member
iTrader: (4)
 
MartinezA92's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 1,702
Total Cats: 28
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AbeFM View Post
Wait, so, if the bushings are two piece, and you shave them down, then... won't they just slip out until they rub anyway?!
They probably would slip out (because the poly bushings don't have much of a press fit, I pressed them in by hand) but they would stop a certain point, like when they touch the subframe. Not the same as bind, where the bushings have nowhere to go and are forced against the subframe.
MartinezA92 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2009, 09:47 AM   #42
Elite Member
iTrader: (5)
 
m2cupcar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 7,244
Total Cats: 291
Default

The bind isn't a huge deal with OE bushings since they're so soft. But as the bushing gets stiffer it becomes more important to remove bind. Way back I (unfortunately) installed an entire set of delrin bushings w/o checking the tolerance. As before I brought the wheels up to compress the suspension to some similar to static ride height and then torqued the camber bolts. I then went out on the track, through a turn and found that my suspension had compressed from the lateral load, but not returned due to the bind on the bushings. So as lateral load decreased, the car was essentially leaning "out" of the turn. Not a confident feeling. Fundamentally the job of the bushing assembly is to operate like a hinge point for the control arm, not a spring. This why real race cars use bearings.

The delrin bushings I've installed also had some two piece parts, but they were flanged on the end so I had to still shave the ends. I'd hope that the poly two piece sections would at least meet/connect at the center of the bushing hole in the arm to prevent fore/aft movement.
m2cupcar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2009, 04:41 PM   #43
Elite Member
iTrader: (4)
 
MartinezA92's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 1,702
Total Cats: 28
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by m2cupcar View Post
The bind isn't a huge deal with OE bushings since they're so soft. But as the bushing gets stiffer it becomes more important to remove bind. Way back I (unfortunately) installed an entire set of delrin bushings w/o checking the tolerance. As before I brought the wheels up to compress the suspension to some similar to static ride height and then torqued the camber bolts. I then went out on the track, through a turn and found that my suspension had compressed from the lateral load, but not returned due to the bind on the bushings. So as lateral load decreased, the car was essentially leaning "out" of the turn. Not a confident feeling. Fundamentally the job of the bushing assembly is to operate like a hinge point for the control arm, not a spring. This why real race cars use bearings.

The delrin bushings I've installed also had some two piece parts, but they were flanged on the end so I had to still shave the ends. I'd hope that the poly two piece sections would at least meet/connect at the center of the bushing hole in the arm to prevent fore/aft movement.

******* lazy. Guess I'm dropping the control arms again.
MartinezA92 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2009, 05:36 PM   #44
Elite Member
iTrader: (5)
 
m2cupcar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 7,244
Total Cats: 291
Default

BTDT - but once it's done you'll know it's right AND hopefully there will be an improvement. Honestly you should be able to check binding at all corners with the wheels off, shocks and sways disconnected. When I was done with the delrin kits you could pull up the entire hub, then let go and it would just fall (slowly) to full sag.
m2cupcar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2009, 05:44 PM   #45
Elite Member
iTrader: (4)
 
MartinezA92's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 1,702
Total Cats: 28
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by m2cupcar View Post
BTDT - but once it's done you'll know it's right AND hopefully there will be an improvement. Honestly you should be able to check binding at all corners with the wheels off, shocks and sways disconnected. When I was done with the delrin kits you could pull up the entire hub, then let go and it would just fall (slowly) to full sag.
I just lifted the car to see how hard it would be to cut without dropping the control arms. I may just cut a tiny bit of material off that way. Any serious "what the hell are you doing" objections?

And sorry for the thread jack.
MartinezA92 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2009, 10:09 PM   #46
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
 
AbeFM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 3,048
Total Cats: 8
Default

Not at all, I'm interested too. At he mentioned, probably you should lift the wheel, and see if there's any binding. If the weight of the a-arm pulls it down, without the spring, you're DEFINITELY in the clear and don't need to shave anything.
AbeFM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2009, 11:15 PM   #47
Elite Member
iTrader: (4)
 
MartinezA92's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 1,702
Total Cats: 28
Default

What I wanna know is how much you shaved off. Just enough to get rid of the bind? The upper control arm bushing leaves a lot of room between itself and the frame.
MartinezA92 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2009, 09:53 AM   #48
Elite Member
iTrader: (5)
 
m2cupcar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 7,244
Total Cats: 291
Default

Yes- just enough. Ideally all bushings should be too big so you can then adjust them to fit with minimum tolerance. What you want to avoid is an assembly sliding fore/aft on the bushing sleeves. That said- if you over trim, you can always use fender washers (overbored so the sleeve fits through the bore) on each side to take up extra space.
m2cupcar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2009, 05:27 PM   #49
Elite Member
iTrader: (4)
 
MartinezA92's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 1,702
Total Cats: 28
Default

Unbolted shocks and sway, it droops slowly if I pull the control arms up...
How much bind is acceptable here? I imagine the springs will push the control arms down enough, I can do it with barely any weight on them. And driver side it droops down on its own in a few seconds.

Last edited by MartinezA92; 11-17-2009 at 05:56 PM.
MartinezA92 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2009, 03:42 PM   #50
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
 
AbeFM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 3,048
Total Cats: 8
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZX-Tex View Post
+1 on the bushing swap being a lot of work. I am putting in a set now and I keep procrastinating on the bushings to do other things on the car first. I am heating them with a torch and tapping them out. It is a bit messy. I am also adding grease fittings so that takes a little more time.

The deal with the lower ride height IIRC is this... The bushing is bonded to the inner sleeve and essentially bonded to the outer tube in the control arm. The bolts force the inner sleeve so tight into the chassis mount that the sleeve does not rotate around the bolt. If it did, there would be wear on the bolt and/or sleeve since they are not lubricated. Because the inner sleeve is not rotating, and the outer part of the bushing is essentially bonded to the control arm, the bushing twists, like a torsion spring. That effectively adds a tad of spring rate.

That is why the car drops slightly with the poly bushings. No torsion action.
Quote:
Originally Posted by m2cupcar View Post
Yes- just enough. Ideally all bushings should be too big so you can then adjust them to fit with minimum tolerance. What you want to avoid is an assembly sliding fore/aft on the bushing sleeves. That said- if you over trim, you can always use fender washers (overbored so the sleeve fits through the bore) on each side to take up extra space.
You mean, between the arm and the bushing's flared head? You don't so much mean a "washer" as a "ring"?


Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinezA92 View Post
Unbolted shocks and sway, it droops slowly if I pull the control arms up...
How much bind is acceptable here? I imagine the springs will push the control arms down enough, I can do it with barely any weight on them. And driver side it droops down on its own in a few seconds.
Good question. You would think as long as the weight pulls it down and does it smooth, you're in ok shape with the spring putting 800 lbs of force on it.
AbeFM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2009, 07:01 PM   #51
Elite Member
iTrader: (4)
 
MartinezA92's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 1,702
Total Cats: 28
Default

Yea. Eh. Even my 300 lb springs seem like it'd be more than enough. Already have the alignment specs I want, I've decided to leave it. When I do the rears though I'll check for tightness. I have access to a belt sander anyway.

As for the rears, has anyone done it without removing the spindle/axle assembly? It seems like I could stick the c-clamp in there to press that top bushing out, I don't really want to remove the axle, especially after the horror stories I've heard of people trying to get those damn things out.
MartinezA92 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2009, 07:36 PM   #52
Elite Member
iTrader: (15)
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 4,889
Total Cats: 28
Default

You do not have to remove the axles either way. The upper and lower control mounts at the outer end are just bolts. They are both easy to disconnect and remove without removing the upright (or the halfshafts) from the car.
ZX-Tex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2009, 02:16 AM   #53
Elite Member
iTrader: (4)
 
MartinezA92's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 1,702
Total Cats: 28
Default

I had heard you had to, if what you say is true then that's a relief. There is that one bushing that isnt in the control arm but its in the hub/spindle assembly though...
MartinezA92 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2009, 10:02 AM   #54
MT Pony Underground
iTrader: (6)
 
Nagase's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,811
Total Cats: 0
Default

So does anyone sell properly fitting bushings that don't bind? I was thinking about Emilio's bushing master kit, but bind is worrying.
Nagase is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2009, 10:11 AM   #55
Elite Member
iTrader: (8)
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Kingston, Ontario
Posts: 2,791
Total Cats: 71
Default

you need to clearence the bushing yourself. all cars will be different.
shlammed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2009, 11:49 AM   #56
Senior Member
iTrader: (7)
 
nicacus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: SLC UT
Posts: 1,133
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nagase View Post
So does anyone sell properly fitting bushings that don't bind? I was thinking about Emilio's bushing master kit, but bind is worrying.
I didn't do a thing to mine when I installed them and they are fine.
nicacus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2009, 03:06 PM   #57
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Little Rock, AR
Posts: 3,110
Total Cats: 127
Default

I'm thinking this is an isolated case due to the person that machined those delrin bushings.
jacob300zx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2009, 06:06 PM   #58
Elite Member
iTrader: (4)
 
MartinezA92's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 1,702
Total Cats: 28
Default

Maybe. I went on a canyon run last night and I didn't feel anything odd. Everything felt fine as far as suspension goes.
MartinezA92 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2009, 07:01 PM   #59
Elite Member
iTrader: (1)
 
NA6C-Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Birmingham Alabama
Posts: 8,038
Total Cats: 43
Default

Just spend $800+ for OEM replacements like me...

I wish I had gone with the Energy kit from Emilio. The bushings didn't even fix my problem, so I wasted that much money and still the car doesn't feel very much different than before.
NA6C-Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2009, 07:01 PM   #60
Elite Member
iTrader: (4)
 
MartinezA92's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 1,702
Total Cats: 28
Default

What was your problem?
MartinezA92 is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Project Gemini - Turbo Civic on the Cheap Full_Tilt_Boogie Build Threads 59 12-15-2017 09:00 PM
Prepping my '95 for track asmasm Build Threads 82 05-26-2016 05:37 PM
Leaky Wilwoods mx592 Suspension, Brakes, Drivetrain 1 10-01-2015 01:45 AM
Poly Bushing Kit and Shorty Console Midtenn Miata parts for sale/trade 5 09-28-2015 03:02 PM


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:34 PM.