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Comfort with Improved Handling

 
Old 06-02-2019, 04:01 PM
  #21  
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Tein springs suck. They are way too soft and will probably ride worse than 400/300 springs due to the bumpstop contact. Also they have issues with rake that can't be fixed due to the non-adjustable spring perches.

My bilsteins were running springrates similar to those and they rode like **** due to hitting the bumpstops (nonexistent in the back). Twice the springrate rides like butter.

I am running stock swaybars and they are fine.

Get B8s/Allstar Sleeves/Cut Integra Bumpstops/QA1 springs, cut the bumpstops to 30-35mm, cut the sleeves to 3" long from 5" with a hacksaw, profit
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Old 06-02-2019, 04:58 PM
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I will also say to save up more and go with the Xida GS. Yes they are expensive, Yes they are worth every penny. I have been through over a dozen different suspensions over the past decade plus. If I could go back to 2005 I would tell myself 2 things.

1. Stick with 220whp and a stock motor.
2. Save up and buy Xida's to start with and never worry about suspension again.
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Old 06-02-2019, 05:10 PM
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@OP, You mentioned I95 and 826. Dunno how far from you are but I am in Miami and I run Bilstein shocks with 550/350 rates. If you want to feel how that feels, let me know.
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Old 06-02-2019, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by andym View Post
@OP, You mentioned I95 and 826. Dunno how far from you are but I am in Miami and I run Bilstein shocks with 550/350 rates. If you want to feel how that feels, let me know.
Yeah that would be awesome, I'll send you a PM and we can meet up
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Old 06-02-2019, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by HowPrayGame View Post
Tein springs suck. They are way too soft and will probably ride worse than 400/300 springs due to the bumpstop contact. Also they have issues with rake that can't be fixed due to the non-adjustable spring perches.
Just realized something. The Tein springs may be similar in rate to the MSM springs, but they also sit lower than the MSM springs. This would probably cause them to bottom out quicker, meaning I would be riding the bumpstops more than I should be. Stock MSM springs probably have alot more travel.

Actually, what do you guys think about swapping to MSM bilsteins and springs? Would that achieve the result I want?

Gonna look into the DIY coilover kit as well.
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Old 06-02-2019, 09:36 PM
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MSM Bilsteins have dampening issues, the stock springs are still too soft. MSM Bilsteins with Flying Miata Springs and FM Bumpstops is actually pretty good, I have rode in + driven and helped install a setup like that. Not as good as a Yellow Bilstein setup w/ coilover sleeves and stiffer springs, but still comfortable and stiff enough. If you can pick up a set of used MSM Bilsteins for 100-150$ it may be worth it to do that instead. Ride height will be similar to stock.
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Old 06-04-2019, 03:15 AM
  #27  
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I've decided to go with the DIY Bilstein B8 coilovers. Seems to be the best compromise between budget, performance, and customization so that I can play with spring rates and find what suits me best.

Should I also look at KONI Yellows? The adjustable damping might be useful as well.
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Old 06-04-2019, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by dsamani View Post
I've decided to go with the DIY Bilstein B8 coilovers. Seems to be the best compromise between budget, performance, and customization so that I can play with spring rates and find what suits me best.

Should I also look at KONI Yellows? The adjustable damping might be useful as well.
1) Koni yellows suck so badly it's ridiculous.
2) They are not adjustable.
3) If they were better we'd be reccomending them.
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Old 06-04-2019, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by dsamani View Post
Hey guys, so I'm out here building what I want my turbo Miata to be:

I want my Miata to be the equivalent of a 2009 Porsche Cayman S in terms of comfort and performance. The MK turbo kit boosts power a good bit, so that's good to go there. Time to tackle suspension and brakes.

A) I don't want to go with the harsher ride of coilovers, but I also don't want the wallowy softness of stock suspension. Some of the roads around Florida are marginally better than that of a third world country, and half the highway is under construction at any given time, so I want something that will absorb the bumps when I go over them.

B) However, when I take it to the track, I want to be able to drive up and with minimal adjustments go out there and crush it. I think stiffer suspensions really aren't necessary for good track handling anyway, you still want some degree of body roll and weight transfer. These aren't Formula 1 cars.

I will not be lowering the car beyond 1 inch. I don't want to scrape on leaves.


So realistically I am probably looking at some spring/shock combo. Maybe H&R and Bilstein? Tein and Tokico?

First, to clarify a few of your misconceptions;

- The OEM shocks are coilovers
- Aftermarket coilovers do not necessarily mean a bad ride. Cheap coilovers can be harsh. High end coilovers setup for maximum competition performance might still be too firm for street use but are not likely to be harsh.
- Aftermarket coilovers do not necessarily mean needing to lower the car too much
- "Crushing" it on track and best possible street ride quality are going to conflict. Choosing something in between means it excels at nothing. We prefer to nail one use perfectly, and still be pretty good at the other. We generally push a softer setup when it's a dual use car. This way 95% of the time you drive it (on street) the car is amazing and still fun and responsive on track. Just don't expect the same setup we would do for the same weight Miata that's focused on lowest possible lap times. A softer setup means being a smoother driver, more patient in transitions and being OK with something less that the grippiest tire. A setup that's perfect for 225/45R15 Hoosiers on 9's is going to feel like crap on 205/50R15 Conti ECS on 8's.

So we need more info on your build to dial it in. Apologies if it's elsewhere in the thread:

Total weight w/ driver
Tire size and model used for track + wheel offset
Tire size and model used for street + wheel offset
If using aftermarket sway bars, what model/size

My two recommendations would be our Xida GS (550/350) / XL (custom rates) / Xida ACE (semi active, custom rates) or FM Fox.
Everything else will be too short, have inadequate damping, or both.

The B8/S-Tech combo you listed is my standard recommendation for "I want more but adjustable shocks aren't in the budget". As good as it gets below $1200 IMO.
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Old 06-04-2019, 12:47 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by sixshooter View Post
1) Koni yellows suck so badly it's ridiculous.
2) They are not adjustable.
3) If they were better we'd be reccomending them.
You know what, I was thinking of KYB adjustable shocks, I think the AGX model. Either way, the Bilstein B8's standard damping seems to be adequate for a wide variety of spring rates, so I'll just stick to that.


Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
First, to clarify a few of your misconceptions;

- The OEM shocks are coilovers
- Aftermarket coilovers do not necessarily mean a bad ride. Cheap coilovers can be harsh. High end coilovers setup for maximum competition performance might still be too firm for street use but are not likely to be harsh.
- Aftermarket coilovers do not necessarily mean needing to lower the car too much
- "Crushing" it on track and best possible street ride quality are going to conflict. Choosing something in between means it excels at nothing. We prefer to nail one use perfectly, and still be pretty good at the other. We generally push a softer setup when it's a dual use car. This way 95% of the time you drive it (on street) the car is amazing and still fun and responsive on track. Just don't expect the same setup we would do for the same weight Miata that's focused on lowest possible lap times. A softer setup means being a smoother driver, more patient in transitions and being OK with something less that the grippiest tire. A setup that's perfect for 225/45R15 Hoosiers on 9's is going to feel like crap on 205/50R15 Conti ECS on 8's.

So we need more info on your build to dial it in. Apologies if it's elsewhere in the thread:

Total weight w/ driver
Tire size and model used for track + wheel offset
Tire size and model used for street + wheel offset
If using aftermarket sway bars, what model/size

My two recommendations would be our Xida GS (550/350) / XL (custom rates) / Xida ACE (semi active, custom rates) or FM Fox.
Everything else will be too short, have inadequate damping, or both.

The B8/S-Tech combo you listed is my standard recommendation for "I want more but adjustable shocks aren't in the budget". As good as it gets below $1200 IMO.
Nice, lots of good info in this post, thank you! Really clarifies alot of misconceptions I had about the Miata factory suspension.

I'm considering going with the B8s and building coilovers, the price difference isn't that much between them and I'll have the advantage of being able to pick and choose spring rates.

B8s + S-Techs end up being around $600, but for about $800 I may be able to build a set of coils.

Made this spreadsheet. Looks pretty complete huh?



Also, to answer your other questions:

Total weight w/ driver: 2640 lbs
Tire Size (will use same tires for track and street): Likely going to be Federal RS-R or Hankook RS4
If using aftermarket sway bars, what model/size: Likely going to be Eibach, 26mm

I don't really care about having the absolute best lap times, I understand I'm going to compromise a bit on this. I just want to show up to the track with minimal preparation and have fun. In the past I used to do the whole "swap brake pads, tires, change suspension setup" before every track day, and it's just a pain in the butt. I always liked how guys in Porsches would show up and wouldn't do a thing to their car and just have fun. I want to do that.

I've also got this going on, if it helps. It's a spreadsheet I put together.


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Old 06-04-2019, 12:56 PM
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Indeed. Emilio references this but it's an important distinction: Firm =/= harsh. High spring rates will be firm and follow the road closely, but with proper valving in the dampers, won't be harsh. I am not kidding you one tiny bit that my car on 700/400 pound springs (and Xidas, of course) is far, far less harsh than any stock suspension Miata I've driven, even fresh super low mile ones. Yes, it's more firm, the car follows undulations in the road, but you get on an expansion jointy freeway and slam a bridge joint at 80 mph and it just completely soaks it up. Driving it back to back with our GT350 (stock adaptive dampers and ford performance springs), my Miata is less harsh.

You say you want it to ride like a Porsche but won't spend more than $1000... gonna be tough. Best bet in that price range is definitely the Bilstein direction you're heading, but you're still going to be sacrificing some ride quality and some on-track performance compared to the Xida. If you *actually* want suspension that's going to ride like buttah and still crush it on track, you're going to need to spend some more money.
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Old 06-04-2019, 01:02 PM
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Basically this is what's happening



I don't need the Iron Throne, I'd be okay with the Pool Noodle Throne as long as it's decently comfortable and good handling.
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Old 06-04-2019, 01:08 PM
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Bilsteins are your noodle.
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Old 06-04-2019, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by turbofan View Post
Bilsteins are your noodle.
Awesome. That list I have up above, looks pretty complete? Am I missing anything?
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Old 06-04-2019, 01:20 PM
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Dunno, I bought Xidas (before I started working here).
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Old 06-04-2019, 01:46 PM
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Don't be afraid to up the springrates to the 450/300 range, that's what I am running. I would classify them as firm but comfortable. 550/400 gets near the limits of stock-valving B8s, I personally think 300/225 is a bit soft but I haven't really experienced those rates.
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Old 06-04-2019, 01:46 PM
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You left out the extended top hats for the rear which will be even more needed since you went with such sloppy spring rates.
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Old 06-04-2019, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by HowPrayGame View Post
Don't be afraid to up the springrates to the 450/300 range, that's what I am running. I would classify them as firm but comfortable. 550/400 gets near the limits of stock-valving B8s, I personally think 300/225 is a bit soft but I haven't really experienced those rates.
Well, I guess what's cool is that experimenting with different setups should be easy. Cool that the B8 works with such a wide range.

Originally Posted by sixshooter View Post
You left out the extended top hats for the rear which will be even more needed since you went with such sloppy spring rates.
Any recommendations? I've seen Maruhas and stuff like that posted.
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Old 06-04-2019, 02:52 PM
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There's a bunch of them. Pick one you like. Maruha, ISC racing, I can't remember who else. Some are prettier than others but they will all do the job.
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Old 06-05-2019, 03:34 PM
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[QUOTE=dsamani;1537046]Hey guys, so I'm out here building what I want my turbo Miata to be:

I want my Miata to be the equivalent of a 2009 Porsche Cayman S in terms of comfort and performance. The MK turbo kit boosts power a good bit, so that's good to go there. Time to tackle suspension and brakes.

It never will be. Apples and oranges.

A) I don't want to go with the harsher ride of coilovers, but I also don't want the wallowy softness of stock suspension. Some of the roads around Florida are marginally better than that of a third world country, and half the highway is under construction at any given time, so I want something that will absorb the bumps when I go over them.

Stay off the bumpstops.

B) However, when I take it to the track, I want to be able to drive up and with minimal adjustments go out there and crush it. I think stiffer suspensions really aren't necessary for good track handling anyway, you still want some degree of body roll and weight transfer. These aren't Formula 1 cars.

What track and what skill level? If you are talking Sebring at an advanced pace you will need very stiff springs to stay off the stops. If you are slow on hard tires at PBIR, not such an issue?

I will not be lowering the car beyond 1 inch. I don't want to scrape on leaves.

Again at Sebring you need a bunch of travel. Slammed is stupid.

Sounds like you want and need XIDA but don't want to spend crush it at the track or Cayman money
QUOTE]
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