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Old 11-19-2009, 11:17 AM   #1
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Default D2 coilovers

Anybody had any experience with these coils? The search turned up nothing, but that's not to say it isn't on here already. One of my buddies put these on his BMW 328is, and they handled wonderfully and were very stiff. Right now I am running a tokico cup kit, and I'm not impressed with the handling. I'm trying to decide between a mid range coilover and konis with the ground control springs, which would be better for my application? I do mostly street driving, but I also auto-x about once a month. I really want a stiffer ride, these tokicos aren't doing it for me. I still have quite a bit of body roll, even though I have the FM sways set to full stiff front and rear. Any insight?
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Old 11-19-2009, 11:30 AM   #2
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I just installed some on my friends Legacy and it handles very nice, it IS pretty stiff but the ride isn't as hash as Tien's. The D2's have like 36 points of adjustment on the struts. We set his at 18 all the way around...I don't think you'd be disappointed using these.
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Old 11-19-2009, 11:52 AM   #3
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Stop giving advice/suggestions from little perspective of dampers and suspension that you have(sorry to be harsh but this is where bad advice starts). Either modified the stock shocks if you want it lower or get a basic koni setup. Real R&D cost money, you get what you pay for.. entry level coilovers are a unsafe hazard. They don't do what they are made to do

Don't forget the heart of a comfortable or compliant car is its damper.
It took me 6 years and thousands of dollars to get some moderate perspective of why my car wasn't fast and unstable for the street or circuit.
Compliant cars in either trim are necessary for your comfort and your cars ability to absorb the road with minimal weight transfer.

Roads arn't glass smooth, The suspension is there for a reason. When one of the lead damper manufacture out there, Penske says one-thousandth of an inch is worth 40pounds of rebound. I can only look at the quality control these entry shocks produce. I can't imagine making profit at that price unless they stole the R&D and manufactured them with below average manufacturing.



<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Q9YGAS4Ave4&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Q9YGAS4Ave4&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
Double Control arm with a custom bilstein damper. This track is rough. Just look at the compliance of the car. Reno-Fernley is a pretty rough track.

Subuaru on rougher road.


References and Editorials


A national level autocrosser and former Suspension Engineer for a race team ( that is how important suspension is, it can be made into a career)
DGs Autocross Secrets aka Autocross to Win - Shocks
Editorial by a tuner in California that is highly regarded
Wannabe JDM Companies

Ronald
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Old 11-19-2009, 11:55 AM   #4
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Stop giving advice/suggestions from little perspective of dampers and suspension that you have(sorry to be harsh but this is where bad advice starts). Either modified the stock shocks if you want it lower or get a basic koni setup. Real R&D cost money, you get what you pay for.. entry level coilovers are a unsafe hazard. They don't do what they are made to do

Don't forget the heart of a comfortable or compliant car is its damper.
It took me 6 years and thousands of dollars to get some moderate perspective of why my car wasn't fast and unstable for the street or circuit.
Compliant cars in either trim are necessary for your comfort and your cars ability to absorb the road with minimal weight transfer.

Roads arn't glass smooth, The suspension is there for a reason. When one of the lead damper manufacture out there, Penske says one-thousandth of an inch is worth 40pounds of rebound. I can only look at the quality control these entry shocks produce. I can't imagine making profit at that price unless they stole the R&D and manufactured them with below average manufacturing.



YouTube - Pfadt Racing C6Z Testing at Reno Fernley
Double Control arm with a custom bilstein damper. This track is rough. Just look at the compliance of the car. Reno-Fernley is a pretty rough track.
YouTube - Suspension Cam!
Subuaru on rougher road.


References and Editorials


A national level autocrosser and former Suspension Engineer for a race team ( that is how important suspension is, it can be made into a career)
DGs Autocross Secrets aka Autocross to Win - Shocks
Editorial by a tuner in California that is highly regarded
Wannabe JDM Companies

Ronald
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Old 11-19-2009, 11:59 AM   #5
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if i'm not mistaken the springs that come with the tokico's (wht. illumina's right?) are pretty soft. find out what they are (spring rate) and buy ebay sleeves blue or silver iirc, come with 450/350 spring rates. if they give you the stiffness you want and don't like the idea of having ebay's, buy a set of gc's with the same rate springs. that would be the least expensive route. the ebay coilover sleeves are about $50.

couldn't find anything on the d2's from any miata forum. i found nothing but great reviews from other's like nsx prime, club lexus, and various bmw forums. there was a post where a guy on honda-tech bought some but got rid of them (without even driving on them) after a bunch of idiots were talking **** about them even though none of them had any experience with them and didn't know anyone that had. so what did they base their recommendation on? anyway's, i have a set being made right now (custom spring rates and valving) and you can bet i'll report on them, good or bad.
also i will be doing full-on track events, not just cruising around town and talking about how "slammed" they made my car.
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Old 11-19-2009, 12:08 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronmastas View Post



Stop giving advice/suggestions from little perspective of dampers and suspension that you have(sorry to be harsh but this is where bad advice starts). Either modified the stock shocks if you want it lower or get a basic koni setup. Real R&D cost money, you get what you pay for.. entry level coilovers are a unsafe hazard. They don't do what they are made to do

Don't forget the heart of a comfortable or compliant car is its damper.
It took me 6 years and thousands of dollars to get some moderate perspective of why my car wasn't fast and unstable for the street or circuit.
Compliant cars in either trim are necessary for your comfort and your cars ability to absorb the road with minimal weight transfer.

Roads arn't glass smooth, The suspension is there for a reason. When one of the lead damper manufacture out there, Penske says one-thousandth of an inch is worth 40pounds of rebound. I can only look at the quality control these entry shocks produce. I can't imagine making profit at that price unless they stole the R&D and manufactured them with below average manufacturing.



Ronald
Oh good we got another Utard. Is that your picture? Probably not. I would also like to see the wheel and or suspension arms that came off that corner. Any shock can bend/break if you slam a curb hard enough. This is just like the picture of the cracked rota's everyone posts when someone asks about them. Yet I see people racing on them at NASA events all the time. I'm not defending D2's as I haven't seen or rode on them yet, I say yet cause my shake and bake brother just ordered a custom valved set last week. Did it really take you 6 years to decide on a set of Koni's? Ronald, I have a question for you since you seem to feel that you HAVE to run a 4k coilover just to see a benefit/not snap a shock shaft...are these better than stock? This isn't a term paper either so instead of references post some actual real world knowledge if you have any.

So basically the concensus is you need 4k coilovers if you want to live?

Edit: Spoolin2bars beat me to it. I can't believe he wants to die...I'll miss you buddy.

Last edited by jacob300zx; 11-19-2009 at 12:20 PM.
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Old 11-19-2009, 12:31 PM   #7
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Okay? Showing a broken shaft doesn't say anything...I can show you a bent Carrillo rod does that go to say they're bad quality? D2's are good coil-overs, I personally have known several people who run these, and there customer service is spot on. And I wouldn't call them cheap either...
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Old 11-19-2009, 12:33 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronmastas View Post



Stop giving advice/suggestions from little perspective of dampers and suspension that you have(sorry to be harsh but this is where bad advice starts). Either modified the stock shocks if you want it lower or get a basic koni setup. Real R&D cost money, you get what you pay for.. entry level coilovers are a unsafe hazard. They don't do what they are made to do


Ronald
double post ftl
yes, please listen to yourself
do you have any track experience?
please stfu
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Old 11-19-2009, 01:13 PM   #9
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Worst valving ever.

Read this thread, I had them on my Auto-X MR2 when I first set up the car...there was almost no dampening to speak of. I might as well had a steel rod with a spring instead of these things. I got the revalved and there are some shock dyno's from my set. I have to tried them after the revalve but I will put them on for next season.

Do not buy these unless you get them revalved by someone that know's what they are doing.

Thread from my revalve with dyno's:

The good stuff starts on page two. There is also an Ohlins engineer that is in that thread. Loots of good info and a bunch of filler. Wade through it.

http://www.mr2oc.com/showthread.php?t=333205

Last edited by MicaCeli; 11-19-2009 at 03:42 PM.
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Old 11-19-2009, 01:27 PM   #10
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Someone here get a shock dyno.

I'd like to donate my GAZ ***** to science to prove to myself that the rebound damping was so insufficient as to be borderline dangerous on track, and makes my car junk on corner entry at the autox.

The easy revalve-ability of the Bilstein is what made me gravitate toward the FCM setup. I think you have to enter into this game with the acceptance that you will have to get revalved in order to get a good/great setup. Just sticking a higher spring rate on an ots shock will not net you a better handling car. Better to get a quality shock and a suitable spring rate (ie, light). Not even poking at the D2 fire, because I know nothing about them. The point of ronmastas JDMquality rant was lost because most of us, including him, probably know nothing about the D2 setup.
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Old 11-19-2009, 01:29 PM   #11
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Oh, and we need an Ohlins engineer here plz, thx.
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Old 11-19-2009, 01:34 PM   #12
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Watch 2:30 HAHA I love pumping iron

YouTube - Arnold Schwarzenegger Pumping Iron Part 6/9

I believe they revalved spoolin2bars for free.

MicaCeli your link doesn't work.
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Old 11-19-2009, 01:46 PM   #13
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I'm really looking for personal experience with these coils, I don't really care about theories or "I saw this on another board." If there is no previous experience with these, I believe I would be better served with konis and GC springs.
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Old 11-19-2009, 02:57 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adamhershner View Post
I'm really looking for personal experience with these coils, I don't really care about theories or "I saw this on another board." If there is no previous experience with these, I believe I would be better served with konis and GC springs.
If what you are looking for is anecdotal evidence, which is what personal experience is, in reality, then I think an ots Koni with a reasonable spring, a Koni revalve with your target spring, or a revalve Bilstein with your target spring will be just about your only choice. This because these are what most of the "serious racers/autocrossers" are running and talking about over on the pointy-headed board, and what has gotten results on the course/track.

If you trust what Dennis Grant says in his online rant, and take his info as being empirical evidence from someone who claims to have dyno'd a bunch of these shocks, again what I said above. Without a shock dyno, the knowledge of how to use it, and a pile of shocks to compare, or a pile of shocks to compare back-to-back tested in your mode of operation, we unfortunately have to rely on what appears to be personal choice.

What Shaikh has on his site combined with what Dennis Grant has on his site led me to my ultimate choice. I would invite others to link to credible evidence that confirms/denies what these two guys say. Unfortunately, the info linked above from the MR2 board requires registration to view. Can someone get me to this info without reg, as maybe it has something valuable on it.

I am not religious in my conviction on these things, lets get some discussion here. Suspension, linked with tire, is the holy grail to all things automotive, and worth beating to death if need be.
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Old 11-19-2009, 03:49 PM   #15
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I'm trying to understand how "I had these on my car and they sucked" does not translate to personal experience?

I also had a set of K-Sports (same factory different colors) on one of my Celica's and they also sucked.

Here is a quote from the guy that took apart my D2's which were on the car for a season of Auto-X.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aszilagyi
D2 racing struts for the MR2_ MK1 Up-date #1

I received the used set of 4 coil-over assemblies from MicaCeli.
With the intent of running them on the shock dyno.
And investigate if there is any possibility of re-valving (re-calibrating).
For a more suitable ride, targeting autocross and performance street driving.

And from the start there were a few challenges to over come.
Not a big deal this is quite normal in the shock Biz.

# 1 D2 racing deviated from the production MR2 strut tab offset.
So I need to make a new dyno fixture to run them.

#2 the corrosion that accumulated from normal street usage.
Has become a minor inconviance. As water had collected inside the drilled shaft.
And had completely locked-up one of the adjusters with rust.
Also the steel threaded main body also seems to corrode to the threaded on aluminum fixtures.

I would suggest the other owners of D2 (and similar struts). Do some corrosion prevention work. To keep there struts in fine working order.
I would not leave the adjuster hex keys in place. As this is where the water enters.
I would remove them and instill an easy to remove plug to seal the opening.
Also I would take the time to remove the threaded on hardware and lubricate with anti-seize. So in the future spring seats and clevis hardware will move freely.
The best bet would be to send them to a racing shock expert for service.
And while there an oil change will keep things on track. Please remember. A racing shock can be quite dangerous. If the untrained attempt to service them!!!

As far as the quality of the product, it is better than expected.

I grade racing shocks like this. Based on quality and value for your dollar.
Penske Racing #1 value, flexibility and ease of use – (made in the USA)
Ohlins #2 a bit pricy, Excellent fit and finish,
Bilstein #3 nice value for the price. And a nice conservative approach to racing.
Koni #4 good value for the price.

D2 is not main stream here in the USA. But if it was I would place it as comparable to Bilstein. This set uses good quality racing internal components (Better than the low tech street stuff found in some)

There a few flaws but at this price I would call it a good value.

And when tuned properly will be a great performer.

It is a true mono-tube race shock with a single (no check) needle and seat adjuster.
Meaning the single adjuster changes both the Compression and Rebound low speed forces.

It is a true high pressure gas shock with an inline separating piston. Dividing the gas charge and the hydraulic shock oil.

Like I said, D2 Racing struts have a few design flaws. But at this price, is a nice value.
But do not forget. Just like any racing shock will require service to stay in top condition.


Next time I post I will supply dyno data from the as built struts.
And a bit of insight about a re-valve direction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aszilagyi
D2 racing struts for the MR2_ MK1 Review _Up-date #2

Just the facts:

D2 Spring rates as delivered –

Front rate is 225 #/inch
Rear rate is 360 #/inch

D2 Spring package is a standard race size - 2.5 in. I.D. x 7 in. free length Front and Rear.

Stock Aw11 spring rates I have measured in the past-
Front is 85 #/inch (first inch, don’t have the installed preload length)
Rear is 178 #/ inch (first inch, don’t have the installed preload length)
AW16 Rear spring rate is 183#/inch

D2 strut total shaft travel is 4.75 in. stroke length.
But a droop spacer inside could be removed to increase that slightly.

The struts system friction is higher than I like. And is not consistent in the 4 units.
This friction is measured as seal friction on the shock dyno. But I feel it is not the shaft seal that is the largest contributor of the friction.
We have a plan to reduce this force.

The adjusters on the D2 struts tested have no effect on the damping forces. Twisting the ***** in all positions (full hard to full soft) showed no change on the shock dyno.
Sadly there appears to be a slight design problem that keeps the adjuster from actually working. I feel this can be easily corrected. And will up-date when it is fixed.

As you will see in the as delivered dyno curves they are as we thought.
Very stiff in rebound.
The right to left forces differ more than I prefer or are miss-built.

Will let you know more as we start the actual re-valve process.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aszilagyi
Did a bit more work Saturday, and will be back at tonight.

Found a few items of interest.

#1 - A portion of the high system friction. Is caused by the clamped on sway bar tabs. They are actually distorting the strut body tube. Actually causing the working piston. As well as the separating piston to stick in the housing.

This is a big deal that needs to be addressed.

I was able to change the force curves on the dyno by simply tighten the pinch bolts.
We will need a new or modified sway bar link bracket. On the strut to correct this problem. (I was unable to tighten the pinch bolts enough to keep the clamp from spinning)(without impacting the struts performance).

But once corrected - this will add consistence. And increase the life of the unit.

Called D2 Racing NA this afternoon. And they now have a revised larger version of the Sway-Bar clamp bracket (currently out of stock). But it still uses a pinch bolt to lock it in place.

I am sure we can modify the clamps we have as well.

Item # 2

Work to make the adjuster functional, looks quite promising.

Will post adjuster force curves when I am become happy with the results.

All I all things look good!
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Old 11-19-2009, 03:52 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adamhershner View Post
I'm really looking for personal experience with these coils, I don't really care about theories or "I saw this on another board." If there is no previous experience with these, I believe I would be better served with konis and GC springs.
then just go with the koni/gc setup. (although personally, i would do bilstein/gc setup) i doubt anyone with any real track experience will post about these. like i said i reasearched and found nothing on these on a miata. there were some nsx and is300 owners that ran trackdays and daily duty and had good results.

i'm taking a chance on them and will be street driving as well as driving them to the track, and running nasa time trials and miata challenge events. if they suck i'm doing bilstein's and 550/400 qa1 springs on ebay sleeves.
i must say, i had kyb agx and 350/250 qa1/ebay coilovers, and kicked some serious *** on them. there's ton's of people talking **** about those too. for a budget setup daily and track use they are good. i think they are a great fit for up to the stickiest summer street tire. once i started running r-comps and slicks i found i needed something stiffer.
the d2's i'm getting will be custom spring rates/valving. i got a deal on them on the premise that i would be tracking them and reporting my experience to the miata forums. so it's not free for the custom valving, but it's not alot more expensive either. unfortunately, it may be until the first nasa event (end of jan.) before i can get them on a track.
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Old 11-19-2009, 04:17 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MicaCeli View Post
I'm trying to understand how "I had these on my car and they sucked" does not translate to personal experience?

I also had a set of K-Sports (same factory different colors) on one of my Celica's and they also sucked.

Here is a quote from the guy that took apart my D2's which were on the car for a season of Auto-X.
Thanks for the info. It does translate well, imo.
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Old 11-19-2009, 04:35 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by spoolin2bars View Post
i'm taking a chance on them and will be street driving as well as driving them to the track, and running nasa time trials and miata challenge events. if they suck i'm doing bilstein's and 550/400 qa1 springs on ebay sleeves.
i must say, i had kyb agx and 350/250 qa1/ebay coilovers, and kicked some serious *** on them. there's ton's of people talking **** about those too. for a budget setup daily and track use they are good. i think they are a great fit for up to the stickiest summer street tire. once i started running r-comps and slicks i found i needed something stiffer.
the d2's i'm getting will be custom spring rates/valving. i got a deal on them on the premise that i would be tracking them and reporting my experience to the miata forums. so it's not free for the custom valving, but it's not alot more expensive either. unfortunately, it may be until the first nasa event (end of jan.) before i can get them on a track.
Is your guy going to be selling these with the revalve?

With the revalve, and if your guy gets the adjusters to work properly, and considering they are monotubes, you end up with what is effectively a Bilstein with adjusters, notwithstanding their longevity/quality. I guess you will have to report on their quality/longevity after you use them.

FWIW, I have the agx setup with FM springs, similar to the rates you quote above on her n/a 96. They, too, were very very good on the track with Ecsta XS UHPs. They are better than the GAZ **** I have now, bar none. I would argue, however, that you could probably piece together a better kit for a similar price with a Bilstein or a Koni. Further, from anecdotal evidence, between these two the Koni wins off the shelf for better stock valving.
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Old 11-19-2009, 05:14 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by webby459 View Post
Is your guy going to be selling these with the revalve?

With the revalve, and if your guy gets the adjusters to work properly, and considering they are monotubes, you end up with what is effectively a Bilstein with adjusters, notwithstanding their longevity/quality. I guess you will have to report on their quality/longevity after you use them.

FWIW, I have the agx setup with FM springs, similar to the rates you quote above on her n/a 96. They, too, were very very good on the track with Ecsta XS UHPs. They are better than the GAZ **** I have now, bar none. I would argue, however, that you could probably piece together a better kit for a similar price with a Bilstein or a Koni. Further, from anecdotal evidence, between these two the Koni wins off the shelf for better stock valving.
yes on the koni > bilstein w/stock valving, but i wouldn't have either one with stock valving. but no, i couldn't piece together a kit for anywhere close to what i'm paying for these. otherwise i would have done it. i didn't pay ebay prices.
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Old 11-19-2009, 09:36 PM   #20
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I'm not trying to offend you, just trying to help the community not buy into things because their cheap and fit into the budget. The above image is obviously to persuade my opinion (just like any editorial would do)
I do know that d2 don't work, ridden in a few to understand the dynamics at play at compression and rebound stage of dampers, Even trying to adjust them, it minimally fixed anything When a new set of d2 start to unload the compressed spring without much control, I can say the function of the coilover is compromised. I would perfer keeping stock suspension vs buying items that would superficially work in the idea of being stiff and lower.
We learn from our mistakes, and we've all made them. I came from owning 240sx's since I was 16. The 240sx market was saturated with heavily marketed aftermarket for drifting. IT was all that was supplied and demanded. Its only till recently that the nissan guys are experiencing Koni and Bilsteins. *There is a guy who still has to build housing for koni 8611* to cater to the hpde community.

Lapping days were the only thing that gave direction and perspective to me. Perspective of what modifications were needed and why they done, and a more substance reason to modify the car (faster, safer)
Why do you think I choose a miata as a platform to build on.

You may take all our information with a grain of salt, its just one mans opinion.
-Ronald
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