I have the Frog Arms and they made a HUGE difference in front end stiffness. D_MN...wish I could weld better than I did in 9th grade shop class!

It is more because the pedal twists the panel that the brake is installed on.

Yea I think the frog arms should work good. mine are half the weight and attach better to the fender area with some welded on reinforcement to the bolt up area though. I can't say which would work better.

Bob

Yours only weigh 2 pounds? I'm amazed the little 4 pounds Frog Arms work so well.

I can understand why Boss Frog attached where they did. It is really the only point that you can bolt to readily. But, since you welded, it seems like you could go even further forward on the inner fender. It seems like the closer you got to the shock tower, the better the support would be. Is there a reason you didn't carry it to directly above the wheel well and across from the shock towers?

So are you guys just basically welding what looks like a bolt to the shock tower flange and putting it up against the master cylinder, or is there a small space in between them?

Bob, i would love to see some pics if you have any?

You don't want a space. The idea is to put pressure on the back of the cylinder so the firewall flexes less when applying the brake.

Would be better yet if you could capture the end of the cylinder in a cup to surround it, then tighten... would prevent it from yawing.

Agreed, but would the difference be that much? IMHO, I've never had an issue with the flex of the cylinder so I chose to do nothing. I can see why someone would add something to their brace...since they are in the area anyway.

Brake flex is only a big concern in the initial design (when it robs you of mechanical advantage therefore you have to design a higher effort system) or if the flex allows something to bottom, limiting brake application force. Neither is true with the Miata.

I owned a bike where the rear brakes flexed enough that you could bottom the hand lever. You could adjust the hand lever out further...but then it was uncomfortably far from the bar. Someone designed a horseshoe bar to reduce the flex and it worked great.

Wanna sell me a well designed brace then? I can test it for you, then you can sell it to the rest of these people. :P

Bike as in motorcycle?

Don't look at me. I installed the crappy/useless Ebay brace...at least it looks pretty! :-}

I think for a lot of people installing these braces, it is akin to looking in the street for the money you lost in the alley way. The brace doesn't do much but it's sure easy to install. In comparison, the Frog Arms require a lot of time because you have to yank the fenders, but they work much, much better. The three point braces, that mount to the firewall are considerably more effective, but still not as good as fender braces.

The bike was a GT I-drive mountain bike. The bracket looked like a little horseshoe and fit over the rear suspension frame tubes. Slick piece of work.

/\ Each piece on its own is only a piece of the puzzle. These combined with others are what complete the package. Anyone who thinks a single item is going to give them the results they are after, are only chasing rabbits.

Race seats are great, but only really show their potential with 5 or 6 point harnesses.
Turbos are great, but only really show their potential when drivetrain and chassis are prepared for them.

Strut bar is a decent piece, but only a piece.

Agreed. I guess what I'm really saying is that some parts offer more "bang for the buck" and I would recommend they people start there first. For example, I think it's silly to do all kinds of expensive suspension work and be driving around on 5 year old $40 Kelly tires. Tires are huge on the bang for your buck scale.

My last Miata had all kinds of braces, my current one has none.

You could get frog arms, and butterflies, and three points and rear subframe braces... I'm just not sold on adding a lot of metal to the car at those points.

I'd like to see actual track data on one car, braced everywhere vs braced nowhere. See if the hundred pounds of metal does something more than make the car more comfortable.

A cage, like a 12 or 16 point, tied into shock towers, that's some real triangulation.

Oh exactly... and I wasn't singaling anyone out. ;)

Yeah, if you have a cage all the bracing stuff changes. Race cars and street cars are coming at this from very different positions. I like the bracing for how much more solid it makes the car feel and how it reduces NVH and cowl shake and shudder. I have no idea if any of the improved stiffness is worth the weight in shear performance...probably not. Steering response was hugely improved when I added the Frog Arms and interestingly, the stiffer front end leaned more toward oversteer (which is the opposite of what you might think.)

Let's not go there! AutoX and Track setups are obviously different and many factors come into play with what you want out of the car.
But first and foremost is what the driver likes as feedback from the car. Period!
And to each his own...
Now as far as data... we put on our cars what work and have been proven to do so. I'm not too worried about adding weight, because I have taken tons of weight out to accomodate this. Part of the puzzle I have mentioned above. ;)

Funny you should mention weight. The Frog Arms weigh about what my gut gains on a bender! :-)

I recall getting in a deep discussion about weight with this guy who did all kinds of stuff to remove weight from his car only to find he drives around with 50 pounds of tools in his trunk.

LOL! I carry tools. Only to be left at the paddock while doing sessions. ;)
Every ounce counts. Trust me.
HP to weight ratio isn't a farce.
Edit*** My mantra used to be "If it falls to the ground, it's too heavy to be in the car."

See post #10

Bob