highest HP with 6 spd.
 

wondering how high the 6spd can be taken...

anyone out there with over 400hp with a 6 spd?
how many miles on it, how's it holding?

There's been much discussion on this. I think the power limits of the 6speed are largely unknown because I don't think anybody has actually broken one.

out of all that discussion, i have yet to see/read about one 400hp + Miata with a 6 spd in it.
most all high hp Miatas i've read about use the 5 spd with the expensive Quaiffe guts.

i've read about 300-350hp Miatas using the 6 spd successfully, but nothing north of 400hp.
there's gotta be someone with a high hp Miata using one, i'd like to know if it will hold up to the abuse.

people have destroyed 6 speeds, it's just uncommon.
400whp street driven with mechanical empahty should be fine. if you're drag racing, ********, or just abusing it, expect it to last longer than a 5spd would but not for forever.

What tranny was 1badmx5 using? He was pushing 500hp.

I'm about to put 300whp through mine on the street...250whp on the track.

Wasn't that guy with the 8 sec Miata running a 6-spd and broke third. He was making like 580whp or something, drag only car. So, realisticly, 400hp should be cake for a 6-spd. 5-spd, ehhh, 350whp is pretty much the limit.

Read more. 250whp is where you start breaking 5-speeds based on pure torque. Shift one hard at 200whp and you can break it, too.

I swear, the next time I see one of these "what can I make that you guys will buy" threads, I am going to argue RX7 transmission adapter plates until I am blue in the face.

I know, right? That's what i've been saying. Someone should make a kit. A "This is everything that you need to do a TII tranny swap except the tranny" kit. Or even a TII drivetrain kit including the stuff to swap the rear.

I have read into it. 350whp is the safe limit. I read and go on personal experience. We had the stock 5-spd on the 480whp 1.8l, never had an issue. Keith Verges' cars are making 275whp with a FMII kit, Hydra ECU, and all run stock 5-spds. NEVER had a tranny fail. They make close to 250tq as well.

5 speed is a piece of shit at 250 whp

treated like the car in your sig is treated? go figure :bang:

no other cars I am on the track with blow trans like a miata.
This comes up all time simply because the trans are shit. When you'er turbo.

So my sig doesnt matter..

You're a fucking imbecile. Jerry Hoffman had 2nd gear fail on a simple 2nd-gear acceleration pull during an autocross at 235tq. I decimated 3rd gear at 219whp. I have a friend who did the same thing at less than 200whp. If you never had an issue, you never drove the car. Just because YOUR shop has never had an issue doesn't make the tranny invincible at 350whp. Take your high-and-mighty tuning-shop attitude and stuff it up your ass.

so, your saying that I have the same chances of blowing up my transmission on 250 HP going to taco bell as you do walking down the runway?

The 480whp Miata we had was a d-r-i-f-t car, and he blew the motor before he blew the stock 5-spd. It was a stock block, and lasted 2 events. That was when he parked the car, and then parted it out. The chassis is now sporting an LS engine.

OK, and? You just named 2 cars. I named 8...which all but one are TRACK DUTY ONLY cars. Which means they get fucking FLOGGED when they are driven. Of course, they might also know how to drive so as not to destroy their cars. That's the difference between drivers and good drivers I guess.

You are right, I don't drive my car:
YouTube - Miata @ MSR Cresson

My friend driving it. 223whp/191tq. Tranny isn't broken.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...avsDragCar.jpg

Sorry, I'm driving it this time. Made about 25 passes, ran a best of 13.51@103. Most passes were 14.1 or better. No tranny noise, no grinding. Must be a freak tranny, goes with my freak power setup, since you can't make 184whp on the WG. How many other MT rumors do I need to shatter before people stop arguing and start listening?

I will be 400+ and I'm going to be using a 6-speed. I don't anticipate having any issues with it.

Rumor? Get fucked. I broke one at 219whp/201wtq. Just because you haven't broken one doesn't suddenly make every other case invalid. People routinely break the 5-speed at around 250whp, and sometimes less.

The only rumors are the ones you spread. The 5-speed is not reliable at 350whp - period.

Right. You keep thinking that. Can you find me 6 more cars that have between 200 and 250whp that have broken trannies? I have posted 8 examples that I have PERSONALLY seen. 7 SM-T cars, and one that was a friend's who worked here when I was just a customer. To use your own statement against you, "Just cause YOUR tranny breaks at 219whp/201tq doesn't mean that's the norm, and the 5-spds are gonna break at 250whp." Who are these people who have "routinely" broken their trannies at 250whp? Anyone wanna e-mail Matt? I know he broke his 5-spd before he did his Quaife gearset. What whp level was he at? Well, he never says whp, he always uses tq when discussing his power levels, so someone ask him. I have his email, but if I ask, I know everyone will call BS when I post it up. I'm pretty sure he was over 300tq, but I'm not 100%. So someone, find out, and post your findings.

Ill step in. One of my best friends just blew the tranny on his sub 250whp car. Ak47bravo on this forum, he wasnt even beating on the car when it went out, and his car is only around 220-230whp. Maybe less.

I know i dont expect mine to last too long.

One:
Two:
Three and four:
Five:
Six:
Took me about 20 minutes. They aren't bulletproof at 350whp. Stop spreading shitty rumors.

So you are one less than I have seen not grenade still. And I'm not using the internet to find them, either. I could find alot more if I felt like taking the time. For all the people who broke their 5-spd and posted about it, there are gonna be more who are maing that on the 5-spd and not breaking them. Maybe I should start a thread saying, "250whp+ on stock 5-spd?" and see how many post up. Properly driven and properly maintianed 5-spds will handle 350whp. Maybe people should pony up for some Motul fluids instead of whatever they get at Autozone?

No, you can't fucking count. You gave 8, I gave 8. The 6 I posted, plus the two I have personally seen. Then someone else gave a 9th. It's not my fault you can't listen to reason.

So those aren't the same person? You gave 6, plus yourself, which, unless you're doing the math, equals 7.

So we have 8 people for both of us. Hopefully Matt will get a tally in here, since he has grenaded a 5-spd. That will go in as the tie-breaker as it sits right now. I posted a thread on M.net and CR.net. Let the evidence speak for itself.

Maybe you'll start a thread here? These are your morons on this site, right?

Dude, wtf. Just because you have seen 8 that havent doesnt mean they dont break, that just means those 8 havent broken yet. What a tard... I havent seen rain in 8 days, it must not rain. Oh, you've seen 8 days it has, well Im sorry, your wrong, I havent seen rain, it doesnt happen obviously...

First person to 10 wins.

I'm not arguing with people who can't do basic math.

Ray - why dont you start that thread you mentioned...I really dont see many 5 speeds lasting long past 250whp. You realize you are almost tripling the power/torque that the car comes with from the factory right? I'd be curious to see results of that thread

Which as Ive already stated is why Im staying at sub 200whp until 6 speed time. I want to take no chances in being stranded, its no fun. I broke down 4 times on the way home with one of my RX7's, on a 250 mile trip. NOT FUN being stuck away from home. Id rather not blow up a trans in the middle of downtown Birmingham and get my ass shot at 2am on the way home from work on the dangerous side of town...

ray_sir_6,
While I had a 200+whp NA for quite some time and never broker a trans, there were plenty of guys in the early days of the FMIIs that broke trans on the miatapower mailing list. This list pre-dated the M.net forum.

Like any other trans, the Miata 5 speed will certainly last longer with some mechanical empathy, but pure power can certainly break them.

I also had an '04 Subaru FXT with the 5 speed. They're known as glass transmissions and people break them all the time with minor bolt-on mods. I put down 411 whp and didn't break the trans. A month after I sold the car, the guy who bought it broke the trans. He claimed that he wasn't banging gears and I have no reason to doubt him. He wasn't trying to get me to pony up for a replacement or anything, and he had plans to go with a built trans anyway.

Frank

Keith Verges is putting down 230whp "for reliability." Everyone blows them up at 250whp. He's had trans death, talk to him about it...I did.
List of people I know who've blown up transmissions at 220whp+ in dallas:
Gary S
Mike (silver miata)
Cliff (black miata)
Keith Verges' buddy with the yellow car
the ATS car

oh, and a lot of you ------s have aids. Want to blow your trans up? Put 230whp through it for a few days.

I know I'm not going to drive from Dallas, track my 5-speed all day long in Tulsa, and expect it to get me home. I will however, expect to get laid every day of my life because I'm the shit and everybody wants to be me.

Nathan, Gary has broken 5 5spd trannies at various power ranges and with various mileage on the transmissions. His red miata (currently 290whp) has been driven maybe 10K miles since he has owned it in 4 years and he does not shift hard on the street or the track, because of of the weakness of the 5spd gears. MiataMike lost 3rd in December at 230whp and one of Gary's customers, Cliff, lost 3rd with 220whp.

Matt had broken at least two 5 speeds before the quaife.

My car made 261/252...I expect it to blow up the 5-speed in a few weeks or a month, not the first time I roll into boost.

I think matt has better things to do with his time than argue on the internet.

Yet when you see it rain, you think it ALWAYS RAINS.

Ditto.

Well, I checked the one at CR.net and they have several people who blew up a few 5-spds. So yeah, I'll admit alot of people have broken them. It's going against what I've seen, but real numbers don't lie.

I didn't even think to ask Gary @ TDR. And if you believe that post from Keith, then you go ahead. I hung out with Chris, his tech/mech who built and got tuned his first few SM-T cars. They all were in the 275whp range, they turned the wick up on the yellow one (the first one) to a tad over 300whp to see what happened with lap times, and they went slower, so they turned it back down to 275. They run 13-15psi on the FMII kits, with Hydra, so it's pretty easy to tell that Keith is not being completely honest. Have you ever seen a 225whp Miata PULL a MODDED C5Z06 on the straights?
YouTube - Corvette Chases Miata at MSR

That Vette is making north of 400whp...yet can't catch a 225whp Miata on the straights? You want to see what a car with similar power-to-weight does to a 225whp Miata (mine makes 223whp, so can't get much closer)? How about a 500whp Evo?

YouTube - Miata @ MSR Cresson Part 2

It's not that hard to tell using VISUAL EVIDENCE that they make WAY MORE THAN 225whp. Just something to think about.

I haven't heard of Keith or his buddy (I'm bad with names, but he has the white Evo) breaking trannies, but they go thru alot of motors.

Well, I've done that before. Not Tulsa, but Temple and MSR Cresson. Maybe I'm just lucky. I did blow the 1.6 rear at 170whp after 6 months of serious flogging (over 100 drag launches, and a day at MSR for 5 sessions). It popped pulling slowly out onto a frontage road. Go figure.

Again, for those that just scanned to the bottom rather than read everything.....

<cliff notes> I'm being proven wrong. I'm not above being wrong. </cliff notes>

That's why I asked for someone to find out and post it. I'm curious at what whp/tq his broke at.
I thought I read somewhere he was close to 300tq, but I can't find it anywhere. I only read about the one that broke when he still set the RWD track record, the event before he got the Quaife put in for Utah.

ladies...LADIES!

you sure know how to shit on someone's thread...you sound like a bunch of bitches in a cat fight.

two pages of broken 5 spd. trannies.

in case you missed it, the question AGAIN was...How high HP wise can a 6 spd. be taken before it breaks.
i suppose i'll find out first hand.
i thought more of you had 6 speeds, i was mistaken.

Robino,

There aren't a ton of guys here making over 300hp. Not a lot have built bottom ends. Some, but not most. There have been a handful of guys that built 400+hp cars. JayL, 1badmx5 and I'm sure a few others. 6 spds are pretty much accepted as the way to go. 6 spds have failed but it is the exception not the rule. It seems that the 6 spd can take just about whatever the limits are of the BP engine unless it's some crazy 700hp build. Those guys then use the 3rd gen RX7 tranny it seems.

For the catfighting here's my take. Raysir6 is claiming 5 spds are fine since he hasn't seen any break. EVERYONE else says they are iffy once you get over 200hp and very iffy over 250. They don't all break. That's obvious. That the odds of breaking are much higher is generally accepted. There's a difference between will break and could break. Not all will. All could. It's a matter of odds and chance more than absolutes.

1st day at the track with 264/257 I shattered the 5 speed rolling into 2nd gear.

I then broke another 5 speed rolling into second on the street behind my house with about 290/270.

I just took my usual run around the neigborhood before lodaing it onto the trailer for the track the next day.

Both transmissions would not go into anygear, and if they did, they didnt move. They just sounded like a few wrenches flying around in side..

The transmissions suck. Its pretty simple.

I confirmed this with Keith. He has broken one 5-spd in 5 yrs on his turbo cars. The one he is running now has been getting abused for 3+yrs and no issues. That is one 5-spd in 7 SM-T cars that have had a tranny failure. These are track-only cars, maybe that is why they don't fail very often?

I'm starting to wonder if proper maintenance of 5-spds are the issue, not the tranny itself. Who was running crap tranny fluid when it blew? Who was running Redline? Who was running Motul? I know Keith runs Redline, my car, and the other Miata that I have been referring to that a previous employee built, have Motul.

I was running redline shockproof HD in my trans.

I changed the fluid every other event. Along with my diff fluids.

Redline MT-90 in my 5-speed when it shit the bed.

ray sir,
you're taking a stupid position. the 5 speed isn't reliable for what we do. at least half the people local to me with turbo 5 spd miatas have broken at least 1 transmission.

period. end of line. end of story. stop being a douche.

Should I just get back in line with the other sheep?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...ndfaithwp8.jpg

Yet people still manage to make lots of power, and beat the living hell out of them and they don't break. Maybe track-only 5-spd cars are immune to the problem? Most people I talk with predominantly race their Miatas, with a few street/track people as well.

Can you tell me how full track cars running FMII w/ Hydra have logged hundreds (thousands?) of track hours over 5 yrs, with a SINGLE failure of a 5-spd? These are SPEC cars running Hoosiers, R888s, and RA-1s. These cars run 4hr, 8hr, and more, enduro events, yet survive. How is that possible? How is this "weak tranny" holding up to such abuse?

Why is the 1.8l rear not listed as a "must replace to make power" when I have seen them fail twice on the same car in a single 25hr event? This is on a SM car, no turbo, just 120whp NA fury.

Racing is always harder on a car than street driving. So if it stands up to racing, why are the street guys having issues? Is it driving skill issues? Maintenance issues? Too much DIY tranny work? Seriously, I'm am really curious what is causing it.

It is! Particularly for drag racers the torsen doesn't take hard launches well. That's why you also see a thread here recently about doing a 7.5" ford swap. The Torsen can be replaced with the RX7 clutch lsd which is stronger. For even higher hp cars the swap to the larger RX7 turbo rear end is common.

Seriously. There is simply too much evidence against your position that the 5spd is perfectly adequate at 250+hp. I'm running 240hp with a 5 spd and have had no problems. It doesn't mean I won't have trouble though. It is a known weak spot in the cars. Do all of them break. Absolutely Not. Do enough break that it should be a concern? Absolutely yes.

Your personal experiences and the personal experiences of your six friends are not the end-all be-all authority on this. Why that doesn't register with you is beyond me. Just because you know of a bunch of people who have broken them doesn't mean that there aren't a bunch MORE people who have. When there are dozens of cases of broken 5-speeds under 250whp, saying that they are reliable at 350whp is simply ridiculous, regardless of what you have personally seen.

I blew my Torsen up about 9 months ago (wheelhop). Do I go spouting off everywhere that they are "totally unreliable at 220whp?" No. My failure was an anomaly. I know at least one, maybe two other people who have broken them. Does this suddenly mean they are unreliable at 220-250whp? No. The vast majority of people with turbo cars and Torsens have had no issues with them, and so that is the position I take, even though my personal experience has been different.

You don't need to fall back in line with the other sheep, but your position is outrageous and you do need to listen to reason here. The 5-speed has more than just a couple documented failures, and just because you PERSONALLY have never seen one doesn't mean there aren't a lot of them out there.

If you want to continue down your warpath, go right ahead. You're not convincing anyone of anything here, and you certainly aren't making any friends either.

QFT.

He was right beside ole' JC-rotor dude that came here spouting how his 11:1 compression motor was gonna make huge amounts more power than anything with lesser comp. When JC gave up raysir6 stepped in and spouted off the same shit, and incorrectly used some math form garrett to "prove" he was right. Everybody said he was wrong but he insisted that he was correct. Yet from a physics standpoint, his argument didn't hold water. Neither from a thermodynamics standpoint. But he wouldn't listen, and had no REAL PROOF OR REASON to support his statement other than some math from garret he failed at using multiple times.

Then he dissed the megasquirt insisting that somehow an AEM ecu makes more HP just because it's an AEM. But once again, no REAL PROOF OR REASON why. Just that he was right, and that everybody else was wrong. Again, AFR's are AFR's, total timing is total timing, yet he insisted the AEM would still make substantially more power. But no proof or reasons why. Just because.

Now he's spouting off about 5 speeds being "good" for 350whp. Raysir6, fuck off. You don't know what you are talking about. I can tell you what breaks the transmission. It's the same thing that breaks the R&P, diff, or axles. Shock loads. Axial stresses, torsional stresses, shear stresses, etc. The causes are numerous. If you can collectively control shock loads to a safe level then you increase durability. You're in the minority, so prove that you're right. And this time don't fuck up your numbers every time.

Again, I DARE YOU to put together a logical argument as to why you are correct and support it with REASON (you know, facts, physics, loads causing deformation, etc). If you have no reason to support your argument, then you have no argument.

In the good old days, Philip would have just banned him and we could all get on with our lives.

what broke on your Torsen?
what part exactly

Arguments that go nowhere and don't listen to reason? Is that you, Peter?

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3..._pan_flies.jpg

I split a small gear (spider gear?) in the Torsen unit itself.

There should be two of them (preferably not damaged, like these are):
Attachment 208256

not one of them, like this one:
Attachment 208257

That caused the diff to lock up nice and tight, which caused the unit to jump out of the third member:
Attachment 208258

...and then the ring gear hit the aluminum housing and cracked it.
Attachment 208259

This is not a normal failure, though. The only guys who break Torsens are drag-racing them, and they aren't known for their ability to take serious launches. This happened during a 7000rpm clutchdump, and I had serious wheelhop the previous run as well as during the burnout right before. Stay away from wheelhop and they are fine.

I destroyed 2 5spd transmissions with about ~200hp. One of them let go while simply rolling into the throttle in 4th gear.

Yeat, I had a 5spd in my 99 that took a royal BEATING between drag racing and ********....60,000mi+ worth and never had a problem.

I hope you pulled this out on the peter pan reroute guy :giggle:

Thats some great carnage sav.

Its all about the wheel hop when it comes to rear end. Those torsens should hold anything you throw at them. Get rid of the wheel hop and rear end exploding problem goes away. Up your RPM, throw in a big cam, and the over torque on the transmission goes away. Just gotta stop loving torque thats all. 10000 RPM is good for the tranny, but then your hood needs kevlar to keep the pistons in the engine bay. Just gotta get it all Buddha'd out that's all.

I think thread question has been answered. The general opinion is that 5 speeds are not too good over 250whp. Select few can argue like dumbasses but it will result in nothing. Just because you've personally seen a few not break at a certain power level doesnt help much. I'd rather listen to everyone's advise and stay safe than to Ray and his opinion and run a much bigger risk of blowing up.

Now just install the 6 speed and report back..that will help us better:D

Yeah, I was thrilled. 100% writeoff of an $800 diff. :bang:

OMFG Raysir6 dude just stfu our shit is weak we need it strong if your weak shit is holding up for alilwhile longer great. My weak ass 5 speed is to but its just a question of when at the power lvls past 250 its simple physics the cases flexx the gears strip and we are left stranded cause our uber trannys ran outa uberness. U call us sheep but u dont preach inovation or a new way u show lazyness and complacency. U tout whatever u have as awesome to boost your selfesteem. I might have one of the ugliest cars here and a shitty ass MS but i have seen what works and exp what it is like to do real new shit. Why dont u go lurk on club raodster or something. They might have a new tanoue cover for u.

Well I have seen far more rear end failures than I have seen tranny failures. This is mostly on SPEC MIATAS, not power hungry turbo cars. Where do cars get the most abuse? ON THE TRACK. So how is a part I see break OFTEN considered reliable for the most part, yet a tranny, which I have never personally seen, and have only one report of failure from several race team sources, weak? Go to ANY SM team, what do they carry more of for spare parts, trannies or rears? If anyone even has a tranny in their trailer it's a miracle, yet all bring a few rears. Sorry, but just cause some people have broken their tranny doesn't mean jack squat, same as you've determined me knowing some people who haven't broken them doesn't mean squat.

I'm not here to make "online friends". I'm here to make sure what info is posted here as a guide to others is TRUE. If I'm wrong, so be it, never had a problem with being wrong. But just as I have to prove I'm right, so do you you. I don't fold under "group pressure". Till someone comes in and says, "Given the metal quality in the gearing on the 1-3 stack, the largest stress loads that the gear teeth can withstand is blah blah, so therefore the limit for that gear is 270lb/ft continual, and blah blah shock load." you have exactly what I have, some people who have or have not broken a tranny, and whatever opinion you have gained from it.

So far I got 5 "survivors" and 1 busted tranny on M.Net. These are just the numbers, obviously I can't put an opinion on those. Please say I can't do the math or I am swaying the numbers to support my side. I wouldn't expect any less.