HPDE/DD brake pads? NA w/1.8L brakes
 

Well I'm sure this isn't a new topic but I didn't find exactly what I was looking for via searching.

Just picked up a street legal but track focused '92 1.6L turbo miata. It already has the larger 1.8L front rotors, and since the rears need replacing, I'm going to do the 1.8L upgrade on the rear also.

Trying to decide what I should do on the brake pads though. Should I just go with one set of pads for both street and HPDE use? Should I have a dedicated set of pads (and rotors?) for track use and another set for street? In either case, any pad recommendations?

Car is not a DD but I do plan to drive it on the street some. I do have a set of Toyo R888's (205/50/15) that came with the car for track use.

And for the time being, no trailer, so I'll be driving it to the track (VIR), about 1.5-2 hrs away.

Suggestions?

Thanks.

I like my Hawk HT-10's. Everyone else is going to recommend DTC-60's but I think the HT-10 works better on the street. I run at VIR and have never had any fade of any sort.

Alternatively you could go with carbotech XP-8 or XP10, they are popular dual purpose pads.

I love carbotech XP8s and they don't eat your wheels up like Hawk. The squeal a bit, but worked great on the street.

You will need to bed them proper to get the most out of them just like any pad though.

DTC-60 FTW. They will turn your wheels black with corrosive dust, if that matters to you. If you want something a little less aggressive, try the Hawk Blue's.

When I searched like a good noob instead, I found:

DTC-60s for the track, whatever for the street. Drive the DTC-60s to the track, and while cold they will resurface the rotors for you.

I will echo everyone and their DTC-60 recommendation. I swap pads for track days, then back to shitty HPS pads for street (BTW, HPS sucks hard, won't buy again)

I'm using HP+ for street/AutoX/Track (30%/30%/40%).
They're OK on track, OK for AutoX and I don't blow through the 1st stop sign of the morning.
Definitely a compromise, not the best at any of the three applications, but OK for all three.

This if for those who DD with occassional HPDE (the Hawk HPS/HP+ crowd).

On a whim, I tried Centric's StopTech pads on otherwise stock 1.8 brakes (front and back). The price was right and I'd read some good things about them on non-Miata forums.

The pads are para-aramid (i.e., Kevlar) based. I now have 10 track hours and 1000s of street miles on these pads. They REALLY work well on my car running about 160HP (I detune to 6psi on track) with street tires. They feel exactly the same from the first stop to the last stop of a hot session. That's with both me and Adam Poland (MX-5 Cup Shootout Semi-Finalist) driving. The tracks were MSR-C and Hallett in some pretty hot summer temps.

My caveat is that I'm on low-grip street tires -- nothing like R888s (ask Eric). I just bought a set of Rivals and will report back results with the stickier tires. Just thought I'd throw this out there because these pads have far exceeded my expectations and I'm not sure if anyone else has tried them.

I don't think there is such a thing as a dual purpose HPDE/Street brake pad, and would definitely recommend you run two different sets of pads.

If you can't swap brake pads at the track you probably shouldn't be tracking a car anyway.

I used Cobalt XR2s on the front of my turbo miata when I tracked it. They are a bit pricey, but the nice thing about the cobalts is they are very rotor friendly and tolerate rotors that have had other brake material on them. So with the cobalts you can run just one set of rotors and swap the pads out at the beginning and end of your track days.

I never tried the Carbotechs on my turbo miata when i was tracking it, but a lot of people swear by them, and I ran them on the SCCA club racing cars I drove all year with good results. That, and the guys that run Carbotech are super nice, good people.

Thanks for the feedback.

I think the DTC-60's are going to be more aggressive than I want to start out with.

Any thoughts on the DTC-30? Optimal heat range 100-800.

As the tires get stickier and the car gets faster the brake compounds must improve. I've graduated up through Hawk's HPS, HP+, and Blue compounds. The Blue compound scared me before I tried them because I didn't think they would stop when cold. They stop fine when cold - just like stock. A lot of Spec Miatas run Blues. And I have no problem driving all day on the street with them.


But I need to go to the DTC-60S now because I'm running 225 Continental slicks, 200+whp on the track, in a full weight car.

Are you guys running the same pads front and rear or something more aggressive on the front?

Same same.

When most people make recommendations on here for Carbotechs, they usually recommend XP10 front, XP8 rear. OR if the car is higher HP or has higher grip, then XP12 front, XP10 rear.

So in general, people recommend (at least with the Carbotechs) one compound less aggressive in the rear. Now, just because that is what everyone recommends, doesn't mean it will be best for you.

Also, for a while in my track/street car I ran Hawk Blues in the front and didn't swap them at the track, just left them in all the time. The dust like crazy if used like that, and the dust is pretty aggressive. I have some 6ULs that need complete refinishing because of that...

The DTC-60s are HT-10s, it's the superceded part.

Track: DTC-60s/HT-10s
Street: Hawk HPS or whatever

HT-10 and DTC-60 are very different.

• HT-10 is a non corrosive compound Vs. DTC-60 is extremely corrosive
  
• DTC-60 deliver higher torque
  
• DTC-60 lasts much longer
  
• HT-10 is much more rotor friendly

I run carbotechs with good results, nothing beats the xp10 pedal feel. I think you can order them through 949racing.

I run the DTC-60s all around, and have not noticed any of the problems people claim to have with these pads. I drive my car to the track, run TT on Hoosiers, and drive it back all on the same pads.

-Cold weather stopping: no difference for street driving down to ~30°F
-Corrosive dust: Have never noticed brake dust corroding anything... maybe due to the low humidity in AZ. Where are people seeing corrosion?
-Eats rotors: I have 20 track hours and about 4,000 street miles on this set of rotors (which have seen 2 sets of DTC-60s and one set of DTC-30s) with no issues, but they are ready for replacement now. 20 track hours seems like a reasonable replacement interval for rotors to me.

As far as track performance, they are very consistent session-to-session, even in 100°+ ambient temps. The TSE brake ducts helped with this a lot, though.

Eh, the HT-10/DTC-60 are kinda sketchy in the morning because you go to get on the brake to a stoplight and they just don't do anything until they warm up. It usually only takes 1 or 2 stops to get some confidence in the pedal.

All of my experience with Hawk pads have been extremely rotor friendly. I've heard of Axxis Ultimates eating rotors, and I have only heard of Carbotechs being EXTREMELY picky about bed-in procedure.

Both the HT-10s and DTC-60s dust like crazy, but I really don't care since I know that it'll stop the car every single time.

I'm using EBC Yellows with Star Specs and they brake fine but I've been running at a track that only has one hard braking zone.

Porterfield R4 and Cobalt are other good choices.

I don't get why people have a hard time with this.

Fresh pads/rotors, go somewhere and do 70-5 stops until the brakes are nice and stinky and starting to fade a bit, drive home using them as little as possible and let them cool.

Alternatively, use the first session of the day ease into using them, then get them stinky and soft, park until the next session.

And this is the same procedure I've used for any other pad.

I've only heard that if you wind up switching to a different pad that isn't in the same family, you need to get your rotors turned or replace them.

Hawks DGAF, just brake hard a few times and you're golden.

I get that, but they specifically say to resurface or use new rotors.

Although I screw off on the forums enough to know how hard it is for people to read.

So are you agreeing or disagreeing with what I said?

I was agreeing with your first statement. Carbotech specifically requests you do this, then people have problems when they don't exactly what the company asked them to do. It's just typical of the inane stuff you see pop up on the forums.

Second I don't know, I've never used Hawk pads.

As promised, reporting back. Did a track day yesterday with Rivals (loved the Rivals, BTW). MSR-C 1.7 CW. This time, I went ahead and left EBC on, so we were about 185RWHP (10psi). As before, absolutely no brake issues with consistent feel and modulation throughout the sessions. Trail braking with these pads was effortless and fun. Dave Tedeschi (Spec Miata guy) and I tag-teamed on the car, so it was working hard. Did 7 20-minute sessions, including 1 back-to-back (40 minutes).

I have about 5000 street miles and 14 hours on track with these pads. Rears are barely worn. Fronts are at ~50%. I've got a bunch more track time coming up, so I just bought another set of fronts from Rock Auto for $43.

I guess I'm upping my recommendation. These pads seem suitable for street up to intermediate-level HPDE. Somebody else try these and tell me whether I'm smoking crack or not. I'm a relatively inexperienced track guy, but the other two guys that were driving the car had gobs of experience. So :dunno:.

I'm more inexperienced than hornetball, but I've been happy with my StopTechs, too. On the short <1 mile track I lap on, I actually find that my biggest problem is them not working as well on the first lap until they're up to temperature, ditto on the street if you're driving around like a grandma. They're not BAD, mind you - they're better even ice-cold than the ceramic pads that they replaced - but they feel considerably better once there's a bit of heat in them. My stock power and little-girl driving haven't been able to fade them on my '99 (non-Sport brakes) with Bridgestone Comp2.

They rate relatively well on the old-codger scale, too: they'll occasionally emit the tiniest bit of squeal during low-speed light braking, but it's rare and mild. Mostly I get it while backing up. Dusting is moderate, but it's extremely easy to wipe/wash off. At the price Rock Auto offers them, they're very tough to beat for a DD that sees a bit of track use.

I've run EBC Yellows on track and on street. They're good on street and meh on track. Its only around session 3 or 4 they start to fade - initial bite is good.

But i also DD mine more than track

Thanks for all the feedback. I ended up getting the Hawk HP+ pads. I don't have much to compare with, but certainly no complaints with them after my first track day. Zero brake fade, no modulation problems. Weather was in the upper 50s. Granted I was in the novice group and running on Kumho XS and not R compounds. Haven't driven them on the street yet other than to bed them the night before I loaded the trailer to head to the track.

I'll post a follow up if I come up with anything else useful to add after I put a few more miles on them.

Get some HT-10s or DTC-60s as backups for next year. You'll wind up outbraking the pad very, very soon. Especially if you're making more power than stock.

I vote for the carbotechs. I have been running them for a few years. Here is my suggestion:

205 street tire: XP8s all around
205 R-comp/Hoosier: XP10 front, Probably XP8 rear
225 RS-3/Rival/Extreme summer: probably the same as 205 R-Comp/Hoosier.

I don't really have a hard time with the bedding process, but they do strongly recommend giving them a clean rotor to bed on. You can probably use a flapper wheel to clean the rotor surface instead of getting them turned, but I don't know about that.

Another advantage, XP8s are good for the street. They are noisy, but I would say they stop pretty close to street pads when cold (ie before your first ~2 stops) afterwards, they do better.

Yea that was my thinking too. Once my driving ability exceeds the tires and brakes I'll move up on the pads and some R compounds and just have a dedicated track setup. Easy swap when prepping for a track day.

You should consider moving up the pads and staying on street tires. Having brakes that work is extremely important, and you'll be outbraking the pads sooner than you think.

This. 1000x this.

I've had a stock 1.6, open diff, but now sitting on Wilwoods on all 4 corners for my last track day. Never had to worry about brakes (and we did many back-to-back sessions between two drivers) and there is negligible pad wear.

Of course, I did my brakes in anticipation of nearly 2x the HP, Aero, and hoosiers.............but no one has ever complained of having too much brake.

One thing I didn't see mentioned regarding the DTC-60 pad for track use is noise. They do give a pretty significant metallic squeal at low speeds which will not impress anyone in your office parking garage.

Not that driving a 20+ year old Miata is going to impress anyone, but it will draw more attention to you.

My Carbotech's squealed like crazy in the first few damp sessions of the day, couldn't get any heat into them. Thankfully I didn't have to rebed them when it dried up.

Just curious, when I was discussing the subject of brake pads with a few track buddies (all mustang guys, NASA instructors, one ran an AI car up until a year or two ago), they all looked at me like I was crazy when I mentioned the DTC60's. as in, why would a light weight miata ever need that aggressive up a pad. They felt I'd be flat spotting tires like crazy.

Obviously none of them had any direct experience with a miata so they were just offering opinions and conjecture.

Any thoughts on why the dtc60 is so popular with miatas yet the same pad might be considered "extreme" in another application?

I used the RockAuto StopTechs for street and autoX but 10 minutes into a session at Sebring they were starting to throw in the towel and that was on RS3's with a stock 1.6. Switched to HP+ all round until I get more power and stickier tires.

It could be down to your technique on the brakes. That's why you will read so many different suggestions regarding what to use.

Mine is a momentum car so I'm not all that hard on the brakes though I do brake late.

Sebring is hard on brakes. Much harder than Road Atlanta, for instance. I needed HP+ on stock power and tires there. Hawk Blue or DTC are necessary with sticky tires at stock power.

Yes. I think most people associate "braking" with "high horsepower" cars. The reality is aggressive compounds (and to some extent bigger brakes) should really be associated with the tires you drive on, more so than your car's HP.

I could ramble about this some, but I think you get the idea. Most people don't think about it in the sense that I can get my braking done in 50 ft instead of 100 ft. They are probably thinking, oh I stop pretty good compared to the others around me, so I don't need bigger brakes.

Thanks for the reality check. I'm thinking my home track (MSR-C) must not be too rough on brakes.

Curious, are you running OEM 1.6 brakes or 1.8 brakes?

Nobody runs the 1.6 brakes here, and nobody likes the tuna here.

I would hope not, but Boris might. All I can see of his car is that it's a '92 1.6.

I have 1.6 brakes but I'm not a super fast driver. I have picked up some sport brake parts for a possible future upgrade.

Sorry bout not responding sooner,....
yes, I do have the 1.6 brakes on my car as that is what I was told works best for autoX (what do I know).
Now that my car is growing some more power with the VVT swap and I'll be concentrating more on the track as opposed to cone chasing I will be tossing on 1.8 brakes from my 94 in time for summer.
I'll probably go with XP8's all round for now.

Well, I'm still using those StopTech's at $32/front set on the Silver car. Have never had fade issues at MSR-C on 205 Rivals. Typical 1.7 laptime in the 1:29s, not super fast but not slow either.

I did get XP10/XP8 combo for the Wilwoods on the Red car. Curious to see what spending 3X gets me.