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Old 03-12-2009, 12:17 PM   #1
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Default I need an alignment

Ok, I tried searching because I know it's in here somewhere (I've seen it) but I came up dry.

I need alignment specs because my car pulls in every direction with the 6ULs.

Emillio's numbers say they're for not-stock ride height and not for good tire wear. Icehawk/Lanny's numbers are what I *should* have now (it's been about a year) and there's a lot of camber so the insides of the wider tires are wearing faster than the outsides by quite a bit... and it pulls. (it doesn't pull with the old daisies+T1-Rs or with the steelies+snow tires)

I need more straight-line traction, but handling is why I bought the car. It's my DD with a few auto-Xs thrown in. Suspension is stock springs with AGX dampers. Someday I will get some better springs but I need an alignment now, on these ones.

Where can I find some good numbers for street use on wide(er than stock) wheels?
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Old 03-12-2009, 03:36 PM   #2
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I like lanny's #'s for street and track with little 205's, but the tow is what wears tires quickly, not just camber.

Caster is extreme in most cases for power steering.

Use your head on the rest and go somewhere in between Emilio's #'s and stock.
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Old 03-12-2009, 04:31 PM   #3
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With 225 RS2s on 6ULs and stock springs I've been running -1.2 front and -1.7 rear camber, 1/16" total toe-in front & rear, max caster. At least that's what it was set to at the last alignment. The tires have one track weekend, one atuox, and a couple thousand street miles, and seem to be wearing pretty evenly and I have no problems with wandering/pulling. I'll be putting on 450 lb front and 300 lb rear springs as soon as I get a free afternoon, and I'll get it aligned after that so I'll see what I've actually been running and go from there.

I don't know what specs you actually have, but if excessive negative camber is wearing the inside of your tires, you can do some/all of the following: A) reduce camber, B) flip the tires on the wheels half way through their life, or C) start driving like a man so you put some wear on the outside of the tires to even things out.

A bit of toe-in will give you some straight line stability, at the expense of straight line acceleration, turn-in response, and some tire wear. 1/16" total toe-in is enough to be stable and not suck too bad at turn-in. I'm debating going to zero toe in the front but leaving the 1/16" in the rear. Also, wider tires will tramline more just because there's more surface area that wants to follow the road, so that could be what you're feeling with the 6ULs.

Any alignment for a street and autox/track car is going to have compromises in tire wear and handling. Lanny/Icehawk numbers should not pull/wander excessively, and they shouldn't cause excess tire wear unless you only drive on straight highways. Sounds like you're simply due for an alignment.
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Old 04-02-2009, 02:32 PM   #4
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So here is what I'm considering giving them tomorrow when I get aligned:

Front
-1.2* Camber
Zero toe
Max Caster

Rear
-1.7* Camber
1/16" Total toe in

I'm pretty satisfied with everything but the toe on the front. ScottFW says he is running 1/16" total toe in, everybody else recommends somewhere between zero and 1/16" total toe OUT, but I'm not entirely sure whether I want to go with zero or with some toe out. At the moment I'm leaning toward zero but I could be convinced otherwise.
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Old 04-02-2009, 03:55 PM   #5
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If you're debating the front toe just go with zero, and after the shop is done mark the tie rods (that's what I'll be doing). Then you can give it some toe-out on your own to experiment at autocrosses or whatnot, and have reference marks to return it back to zero. I think somewhere on m.net one of the autox guys (Andy Hollis maybe?) posted roughly how many turns on the tie rod equals how much toe-in/out. I forget what the numbers were, but the info is out there.
EDIT: Here is a good summary.
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Old 04-10-2009, 01:50 PM   #6
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Just bringing the back alive without starting a new thread.

I run 6UL with 225/45R15 R888 Toyos on 6UL. I'm having the car aligned next week as a baseline for the upcoming track days. Track only turbo application.

I will have zero toe and max caster, just need to figure camber f/r.

As I recall:
load 85kg in driver seat
disconnect sway bar end links
check height, keep 1/2" rake.

Then how much camber?
2.8f, 2.5r may be nice, but limits traction?
expert opinions please!
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Old 04-10-2009, 04:32 PM   #7
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talk to savington because he knows this ****. I suggest you take caster to a more reasonable # if you have manual steering. You really have to fight the wheel at 5* with 225 r-comps, unless you still have power.
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Old 04-10-2009, 07:00 PM   #8
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I get even tire wear out of 2.2/2.0 and plenty of forward grip. Don't go over 4 degrees of caster with manual steering, either. With your springrates, I'd probably start at equal camber front and rear and then adjust to taste. More rate, more front camber.
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Old 04-12-2009, 08:07 PM   #9
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good info for doing future alignments..thanks
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Old 04-23-2009, 05:21 PM   #10
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Cool

So I got the car aligned at a great shop in the city where I do most work that is wheel related (tires, bushings, alignment, balancing, suspension).

They were great and they got very close to my specs with their fancy equipment:

Front (L/R):
Camber: -2*04' -2*03'
Caster: 3*52' 3*47'
Toe: -0*01' -0*00'

Rear:
Camber: -1*48' -1*51'
Toe: -0*01' 0*00'

So toe is essentially zero now and my front camber is 0.2* more than rear. Note that 1*50' (one degree, fifty minutes) is 1+50/60 = 1.83*
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Old 04-23-2009, 05:57 PM   #11
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Spooky,

Those #'s look like Emilio Lite.

I've been running 949's settings for a year now. Getting some camber wear on the inside fronts but you'll get camber wear with anything more agressive than stock settings. Overall they work very well. Very neutral handling at the track with those settings and the rb hollow front, stock rear bar combo.
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Old 04-23-2009, 06:02 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cueball1 View Post
Spooky,

Those #'s look like Emilio Lite.

I've been running 949's settings for a year now. Getting some camber wear on the inside fronts but you'll get camber wear with anything more agressive than stock settings. Overall they work very well. Very neutral handling at the track with those settings and the rb hollow front, stock rear bar combo.
What spring rates do you run? I am still pretty soft and run a larger rear bar, so I'm curious as to how this alignment will handle. Im investigating a spring rate upgrade and shock revalve and may consider changing the rear bar, but Id rather go with more front spring I think...
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Old 04-24-2009, 03:22 PM   #13
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I'm running Tein RA's with 9/6 right now. I'm thinking as long as you keep that 3/2 front/rear spring ratio it should work great. The RB hollow/stock rear bar + emilio alignment also worked well when I had kyb's with standard rate GC's like yours.

If your car is oversteering you might put the stock rear bar back in and see what that does for you. A lot of guys run the rb hollow without a rear bar at all!
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Old 04-24-2009, 03:48 PM   #14
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Savington,
I am going to corner balance and align my car this weekend. Give me your alignment specs and do not bullshit or I'll fly out to Cali and beat your *** like a bitch.

Get back,
God
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Old 04-25-2009, 01:40 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hustler View Post
Savington,
I am going to corner balance and align my car this weekend. Give me your alignment specs and do not bullshit or I'll fly out to Cali and beat your *** like a bitch.

Get back,
God
your bitch *** wont even leave the hotel room in whereever you are dont lie nerd.

On a side note i have run specs similiar to yours spooky with much succes.
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Old 04-25-2009, 05:24 AM   #16
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Mine is not corner balanced, but ride height is equal all around. I dont run the stock bar but the RB one. Ill see how it goes. I dont have the OEM rear anymore, so if I want that back ill try my luck on egay.

Thanks for all the replies!
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Old 04-25-2009, 10:16 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
Don't go over 4 degrees of caster with manual steering, either.
Word. Right now my caster is set at 5.5 with a depowered rack and the steering although manageable is a bit heavy. I am going to reduce it to 3.5-4.0 this weekend hopefully.
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Old 04-25-2009, 05:09 PM   #18
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Excessive caster is not your friend. Before I was running Emilio's settings I was running Icehawk. Icehawk setting say Max caster you can get. Wrong. Not helpful in tire wear certainly but also in driving. Much more stable and planted at a more reasonable 3.5-4.0 range. You won't regret it.
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Old 04-25-2009, 05:19 PM   #19
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I just got back from having it realigned. The tech had to increase the negative camber on the front a bit to decrease the caster. But it is about 4 degrees caster now and is a lot better. I think I'll keep it like this for awhile. I think the additional negative camber helped some mild corner entry understeer I was having, so no worries there.

I think I have pissed off the manager at the local NTB I bought one of their one-year guaranteed alignment warranties, about $70 IIRC, and took it back three times since the initial alignment, four total adjustments. I did tip the tech $20 last time though. He was skeptical about decreasing caster but did it anyway.
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Old 04-25-2009, 05:57 PM   #20
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why is everybody decreasing caster? If you can't get over the heavier steering ok, but more caster is supposed to give more camber on turn-in, which is good.
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