Lets talk about Shocks vs Coilovers what do you use
 

Hey guys now that i have my miata up and running i was planing on upgrading the shocks and springs. The ones that my NA came with are worn/blown so its time. Here is what i was planing on doing. Buying KYB ajustable shocks from my local auto parts store and matching those with the megan racing/eibach spring combo.
I was thinking this might be a better combo then buying an ebay coilover kit that will make my car ass bounce more then a uncle luke video, plus it maybe a cash saver vs a high quality coilover kit. My plans with the car are daily driver with an autocross future. What do the you guys run and what the $ amount spent on it, was it worth the money for it and what mistakes/brands should ppl avoid.

https://www.miataturbo.net/suspension-brakes-drivetrain-49/suspension-hierarchy-41991/

No AST/Xida, no care.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1340315121

Fat Cat Motorsports 3040 complete coil-over assemblies.
800 front 500 rear lb/in spring rates.
Excellent response and grip for autocross, absolutely brilliant ride comfort and compliance for street driving.

Paid $1,647 for them.

I don't use shocks, just springs. It was free.

If you want steel shocks and chinese springs, great buy.

the thought of kybs and lowering springs in this day and age makes me want to ban you right now :)

pffft

They're cheaper than AST; and supposedly VERY comfy. :dunno: Based on mostly street, plus 8-10 autox events a year, I'm leaning towards selling my soul for an obese feline.

Actually I wanted a setup that would meet my ride height needs without the purchase of additional spacers and that would ride and handle better than the Xida CS setup on my buddy's 01 LS for street and autocross.

I got what I wanted in each department and paid less than I would have for the Xida CS system, so what do I care what the shocks bodies are made from and where the springs are from? :jerkit:

I use both shocks and coilovers on both my Miatas. I picked up a second set of SD Billies from the classifieds for $500-the coilovers were mucho expensive as they were attached to a miata when I bought them.

1600 for fat cats? must have been the non-adjustables. Shaik is a master at revalving stocks designed for a stock car to work almost as well as dedicated performance shocks. He's also great at taking months to fill and order and "losing shocks in the mail for a month". For the amount of money you pay for fat cats, you can buy a set of billies and revalve them yourself about 20 times until you get them setup the way you want them. I was going to buy fat cats, I drank the cool aid, then one of their sponsored drivers (no longer) called him on his cell phone and asked when he was going to get shock shafts in. He had just go a set (in march) but they were all accounted for. No thanks I wanted my shocks before July.

I don't understand you guys who will spend $1600 on FCMs that are super heavy, China sprung, slip-on bodies, rubber lower mounts, less overall travel, and questionable shipping times when you can have something light, with great dual springs, metal lower mount, more travel, and world-class reputation for $200 more.

Lets be honest, you're not going to pay less than 2200 to get a xida setup. 1800 doesnt come with NB mounts or helper springs. But they are worth every penny you pay to get a shock that is fairly well valved with very low hysteresis. Hysteresis is the secret to a good shock and a great shock, and its a design thing, not something shaik can fix with valving.

For the thread started, I believe the consensus on "budget shocks" is MSM shocks with ~400/300 springs.

It looks like they have gone up, I'd still buy them and never look back.

Bilsteins, being monotubes, exhibit low hysteresis in their full F-V plot. Dampers that have more bump damping, tend to show more hysteresis as a side effect. However, I wouldn't reduce bump damping on account of increased hysteresis. Having the right amount of bump damping is more important than going from low to lower hysteresis.

Yeah, but to add the dual spring it's another $260, and $100 if you need stock NB mounts. $1999.99 for xida; that's without the fancy dual springs.

I don't see how the FCMs are china sprung, as at least the hyperco springs are made in the USA. I don't disagree that the Xida are better. They are greater in every way, including price.


Complete Xida's are $2250. FCM were $1600 (now I think they're $1700). For me, that $500 means a LOT. My car is a DD, and an autox car. I;m not going to nationals anytime soon; FCM seems like a better option.

Sure for you guys with extra cars, desk jobs, this-that-and-the-other; Get your xida's and spin your meat while thundering down the track giving me the finger.

For those of us where 90% of the performance is good enough, FCM is a viable option.

[/PoorPersonRant]

Although I agree that 949's "allow 1 week for shipping" is very sexy compared to FCMs reputation for "uhhhhh next week".

I'm sure FCM stuff is good but there have been group buys where he's taken 6 months to a year to deliver shocks. Xida seems to be the best option for most people although Tein Monoflex are probably a decent choice if the Xida are unavailable.

Which, in your opinion would be faster, Monoflex or the FCM around an autox?

the better driver?

Bingo.

Depends on the lot. Very bumpy and the order would be xida>fcm>monoflex. Smooth as glass they would be exactly the same, with the same spring rates, ride heights, and everything else held constant between the shock changes.

Leafy,

What gives you that opinion than on bumpy autox Xidas would be faster than FCM's?

Better internal shock design(aka not something shaik can fix), and the touch less unsprung mass. We're talking only a master could show a difference.

Remember when GRM did the FCM vs Bilstein PSS9? The PSS9 has weird spring rates and and the average difference was 2/10ths between them.

Good stuff thus far but lets do it this way, for smeone like me (broke ass) from what ive read the msm and some decent springs would be the best bang for buck under a grand. Is that right or are there better choices.

FWIW I'm fairly satisfied with my Monoflex's..

They ride like ---- on the street, though. Not that I really care...

Your reading some bad advice then.
MSM shocks are over-damped in the low-speed range and under-damped in high-speed damping, and that's just with the weak MSM springs.
Pretty typical Mazda "sport" crap.
They ride terribly, don't exhibit much in the way of control or grip, overall garbage shocks even mated to lowly stock springs.
So adding something stiffer to these already junky shocks really isnt' a good idea. You basically end up with a slightly softer sprung Spec Miata setup. :facepalm:

And contrary to popular belief, they don't last very long when autocrossed or daily driven. Mine were noticeably weaker around 60K miles, at which point they weren't doing much in the way of controlling the MSM springs anymore (real fun in the rain let me tell ya.)
Bilstein HD's for an NB would be a smarter and better choice to use with a ground control kit.

Koni Sports and a 450/350 GC kit will also work, that's been the "broke ass upgrade" suspension mod for years in the Miata community, why change things now?

For $849 bucks and a slight wait, you could just get on the waiting list for the FM V-MAXX Stage 2 setup that Flyin'Miata is selling.

So you are assuming that the internal design differences will make a bigger difference in bumpy autox times than the damping curves, which FCM custom tunes differently, for track vs. smooth autox vs. bumpy autox / backroad.

I will accept that the Xidas are likely the cat's meow for track use, as they have been tested and tuned on the track. But for backroads or autox, it's possible FCM's valving is better.

Here I was, thinking that you had actually driven them back to back.

Never on FCM coils, just the FCM stupid shocks for stock class.

So you've driven on the Xidas then?

I own Xidas.

You are comparing stock springs on FCM's and race rubber, vs. Xidas with high spring rates?

This thread turned immediately into "lets talk ---- about other suspension setups we've never tried in our cars because we didn't buy it and know nothing about how it actually performs."

I own Xidas, but I've also had great experiences with Ohlins as well.

There are WAY too many variables and differences between the miata coilover selection, everyone is going to pick what they bought as "the best", so this thread is kind of flame bait imho.. I also like how nobody really answered the original thread starts question.

Back on track, I hope:

Eibach Springs 450 #/" fronts 275 #/" rears in 7" front length and 8" rear length
Ground Control Bump Stops
Ground Control Sleeves
SD Custom Valved Bilsteins
NB Top Hats
FCM Shock Mounts & Bushings
Ground Control Spring Locators/Isolators
Spec Miata Front and Rear ARBs
Adjustable End Links with Zero Preload (until I learn how to take advantage of wedge at autocross or track days)
Corner weighed to 50.1/49.9% at 1/8th tank of fuel and me in seat
1.5 deg negative camber all around
~13" hub center to fender ride height (zero rake)
0 degrees of toe up front and 1/32 per side toe-in at rear
HDHCDD bar
Car is about all stock with AC and PS (AC blows cold)
Car weight is 2473 with your truly in and 2278 WO (please, no fat jokes)

Car ride height was increased from before based on amount of bump-steering (I had 700/325 springs before so I could ride ~1/2" lower and the delta in bump-steer was about the same).

Need some mods to address the missing dampers (5-10) but that is another story.

15x7 Team Dynamics wheels shod with RE-11s complete the current package. I run 46psi at autocross and the car feels just great.

Daily Driver for months each year. Weekend touring car. 10-20 Autocross events per year. 2-5 Tracks days, HPDE format, per year.

All of that is "fine" but you'll need an act of congress to get the shocks you paid for. The good news is that Congress is no longer concerning itself with government and they will probably consider your plight.

I have had the shocks for a few months.
Don't get me started on acts of Congress or others.

There was actually a lot or mix reviews about the msm shocks, alot of them years ago so i just thought its best to ask. But im glad there is a standard "Broke Ass" setup thats under $1000 and is good for street daily use as well as autox events. My car will likely never see the track but self timed back road time attacks are always fun.

Thanks for the input guys but are there any other inexpensive suspension setups out there for the broke ass? This would be helpful for other noobs like myself on a buget to know.

The FM springs with Illuminas are a good budget setup IMO.

went from KYB AGX w/ flyin miata springs to XIDA CS's with NB mounts & no helpers.

I can not even describe in words how large of an upgrade this was. THE END.

Used coilovers with low mileage.

Brand new "Hard S" valved NB Bilsteins are available for ~$125 each. They pair well with 450-550 fronts and 275-350 rears.

They aren't Xidas but they are a really good valving for the money. They are very controlled but not jittery. I wouldn't tolerate jittery. They have strong low speed dampening (which is great) and lighter high speed dampening, which is what keeps it from being jittery.

R-Package Bilstein and FM springs, I win. Harsh ------- ride, and mediocre handling characteristics. Then it's so low I rub fenders under moderately hard turns and bottom out over speed bumps (thanks FCM mounts). HATE this ------- suspension. Still have Tein mono flex in my future I think.

FM springs are too soft to go low. You will be on the bumpstops constantly. No wonder you hate it.

they are stiff enough for the drop they provide, unlike the RB or Tein springs that drop lower at significantly less rates.

Looks like the Bilstiens shocks are the best bang of the low buck. Still not sure on what springs of stiffness spring to use. But which would be best bilstien shock to use, i plan on lowering the car a bit for better control but im not going all hellaflush with it lol. Which would be best for a DD with autox handling.

Thus far bilstiens and eibach springs is that rite.

Altho V-maxxx coilovers for $8xx ish aint so wrong... any reviews on these?

Apples to apples price comparison
 

To clear up a few erroneous posts here:

$1727 FCM 3040 Elite
Non-adjustable damping
NB mounts included
Steel bodies
Ground Control sleeves to adapt for 2.5" ID springs
Single springs, private label

$1999 Xida Club Sport
Adjustable damping
NB mounts included
Aluminum bodies
Threaded bodies for 2.25" springs
Single springs, Hyperco or Eibach

My math makes that $272 to get damping adjustment as well as a few other features. As always, if getting your dampers custom valved is most important to you, then FCM's are the clear choice.

The seemingly common misconception that FCM's are better for autocross/backroad and Xidas are better for track is well, a misconception. The only instance where significant valving changes would be required would be for stock class where OEM spring rates and ride height must be used. For a CSP/STR/SSM car, you run about the same damping as a PT,IT or time attack car on 9" race tires.

Personally I would venture to guess that the FCM kits are very good track dampers. Just as I know that the Xidas outright excel at backroads and national level autocross competition.

Emilio I think the only reason that no one thinks of them as auto-x dampers is because it seems that national championships are won on fat cats, 2812's, motons, or penskies.

We as a company, no longer compete in national level autocross. I did 20 years ago and maybe a few of you remember that I built and drove the first CSP Miata that won anything of importance. We run our own autocross about 6 times a year. I design the course. We bring stuff out and test it. Our customers race on the stuff we develop. We know autocross, we just don't publicize it like we do our road racing activities. I figured it out, won a lot and moved on to something even more fun and challenging for me.

I'm not sure exactly how many national autocross championships have been won on FCM's. To the best of my knowledge it was E stock? So that's a custom valved shock designed to work with stock sized wheels with 225/50/14's shoehorned onto them and stock spring rates and stock ride height, with stock power. I'll freely admit that Xidas would not be optimal for that application nor be SCCA legal in stock class either.

Talk CSP, SSM or STR and I think we can match or better anything on the market, custom or otherwise. I think it's just a matter of time before one of top autocrossers breaks the mold by trying something outside of the normal circle and win nationals on Xidas. That it hasn't happened yet keeps everyone thinking we "make road racing shocks". So it must be true ;)

If you choose Bilsteins it will be good to look up the part number by a ~'00-01 Miata w/ Hard S suspension. 450/275 or 450/300 is a good match for these for street/autox.

Who said anything about eibach? Summit has the springs you need for less. 7 inch long x 2.5 should be right.
Ebay generic coilover adjusters are fine. And you'll want shorter bumpstops (preferred) or if you are a cheap bastard you can trim the stock ones a bit.

Thank you sixshooter for the advice, that will likely be the setup ill will go with.

On a sidenote, i was window shopping coilovers at a local rice meet at tacobell. When i ran into a guy that suggested a coilover set he bought for a site called Rokkor.com, he tells me for the price it was a steal and has been running the same set for a little over a year without any complains.

Now i wont run them since i live by the code "If it sounds to good to be true" but i was wondering what do you guys think.

Because random ricers off the street happen to know what works best on Miatas though they have never owned one? Sounds good to me, lol.

Rokkors are popular for the kids who like riding around bouncing on their bumpstops dragging the frames of their cars on the ground. They know a great deal about handling because they have studied handling their junk for years. Don't question their expertise or they'll get huffy with you.

Thats just ------- hysterical, but yeah he had them on his miata lmfao. After searching the interweb for rokkor reviews i found out they are actually raceland coilovers hmmm imagine that. But like i said i will likely NOT go with that setup.

megan coilovers slammed to the ground. all i got to say.

^ Um ok. Back on topic, anyone have a problem with H&R springs with Illuminas?
EDIT: For a dd that sees autox a few times a year.

I think Tokico is gunning for Teins in terms of "What's a rebound?"

Sorry. I'm not sure what you mean by that. Is comp good on those but rebound lacking?

I have a brand new set of Tein S-Tech in the classifieds just FYI;)

are you suggesting both Tokico and Tein shocks don't have rebound?

He's trolling you son!!!