managing kungfu grip - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


Suspension, Brakes, Drivetrain discuss the wondrous effects of boost and your miata...

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-23-2014, 07:22 AM   #1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Seven Valleys, PA
Posts: 639
Total Cats: 11
Default managing kungfu grip

Gents,
I currently have 700f 400r xida-s on my 00 Miata. I just switched over to 15x9 with 275 a6 for autox this season. I have done one shakedown autox on this setup and found it to be a bit soft. I also use the car for track events but will use slightly more durable tires for those events.

Will 800f 500r be enough spring rate to deal with the new kungfu grip? Or will I need even higher rates than that?
swimming108 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2014, 09:37 AM   #2
Elite Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Leafy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: NH
Posts: 9,093
Total Cats: 90
Default

I run 850/500 with the hoho's. With no aero its fine, with aero its not stiff enough. I'm thinking about 1000/600.
Leafy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2014, 09:01 PM   #3
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Seven Valleys, PA
Posts: 639
Total Cats: 11
Default

Ok, so it looks like I am in the right ballpark...

For track days I do have a wing and splitter but will be using my z2s until they die on me. After they are done, I may switch to a track duty rcomp, but it wouldn't be any more than a nt-01 for the sake of longevity.
swimming108 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2014, 09:05 PM   #4
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Seven Valleys, PA
Posts: 639
Total Cats: 11
Default

You also have your aero setup for meaningful downforce at autox speed... So I can see how you would need spring rates that high on a road course with the big rubba.

Wouldn't you also need to revalve your ASTs for spring rates that high?
swimming108 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2014, 10:50 PM   #5
Elite Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Leafy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: NH
Posts: 9,093
Total Cats: 90
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by swimming108 View Post
You also have your aero setup for meaningful downforce at autox speed... So I can see how you would need spring rates that high on a road course with the big rubba.

Wouldn't you also need to revalve your ASTs for spring rates that high?
Oh no, the fastest this car has ever gone with the aero on it was a touch over 100mph, and that was on the highway on its way to dyno, corner weight, and align. I need the higher rates with this aero at auto-x speeds. The wing does have a "low" downforce setting if I ever track it, but its still like 600 pounds at 100mph. I'm not sure if the ASTs need a revalve yet. They're gen 1 units which emillio listed as good up to 850 pounds in the front and 500 in the back iirc, the gen 2 valving would cover the rates I want to run. However I only run it currently 6 clicks from soft in the front and 8 in the rear with the 850/500 springs so I have the head room "in theory". I'll play it by ear. If the car gets bouncy as **** I'll drop back to the 850/500 springs. Its not like it takes more than an hour to swap springs.
Leafy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2014, 03:27 AM   #6
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Anacortes, WA
Posts: 2,479
Total Cats: 116
Default

800/500 seems to be on the edge of not stiff enough for this level of grip. I wouldn’t go lower than that. A lot of the time it is about the perfect level of stiffness however. Soft enough to keep tires in contact with the ground over roughness and stiff enough to still have some travel left when loaded in a corner. I would like to try stiffer I think just to see where performance drops off. Also would like to try stiffer springs with less sway bar. Currently I run ISC sways. Front bar is set effectively half way between the two stiffest racing beat front bars and the rear is set so it is slightly softer than a OEM Mazdaspeed bar for track use. For autocross I take the rear bar off entirely.

For autocross I have a double element Cero design rear wing and splitter sticks out 6" past the bumper. For the track the splitter is reduced by 4" and rear wing is a APR GTC200 mounted high but soon to be replaced with a GT250 when I get the mounting done. 275 hoosiers on 10" for autocross and thinking about 11". 245 Hoosiers mounted 10's for the track because of NASA rules give me an advantage to run 245 and under for TT.

Last edited by bbundy; 01-24-2014 at 03:37 AM.
bbundy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2014, 11:00 PM   #7
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (3)
 
emilio700's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,323
Total Cats: 1,344
Default

autocross on 275's I'd suggest either 800/500 or 900/500. Fpr track use 900 or 1000 fronts, depending on aero and weight.

At Nationals this year with medium front downforce and 225 R6's on 9's an 2150# I was running out of front spring with 800/500.
We have ran 1000/400 with no aero on 205 R6's on 15x9's and it was good an all but the roughest tracks. OTS Xidas are quite happy with 1000's.
emilio700 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2014, 09:29 AM   #8
Elite Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Leafy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: NH
Posts: 9,093
Total Cats: 90
Default

Emillio that's great to hear on the 1000's. With the 850 fronts now I'm pretty much on the bump stops as soon as I turn the wheel. Which isnt awful since these bump stops engage so smooth. But its certainly not helping the cars front grip.
Leafy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2014, 07:27 PM   #9
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Anacortes, WA
Posts: 2,479
Total Cats: 116
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
Emillio that's great to hear on the 1000's. With the 850 fronts now I'm pretty much on the bump stops as soon as I turn the wheel. Which isnt awful since these bump stops engage so smooth. But its certainly not helping the cars front grip.
I know some are using 1000's up front to help make up for lack of roll stiffness in using stock sway bars while playing the nasa points classification game.

With my current setup rub marks indicating I used 100% of available travel including a fully smashed bump stop is quite common while autocrossing. when people set up a course that runs predominantly east/west at Packwood it can be rough as hell going across the grain direction in which the lot was paved.
bbundy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2014, 08:12 PM   #10
Elite Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Leafy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: NH
Posts: 9,093
Total Cats: 90
Default

Yeah and the 275s CAN fully smash the bump stops which put the tires like 1/4" into the shock tower. Part of me really wants to use the 1" 1lb rule and move the section of chassis sheet metal near the mount up a bit.
Leafy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2014, 08:19 PM   #11
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (3)
 
emilio700's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,323
Total Cats: 1,344
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbundy View Post
I know some are using 1000's up front to help make up for lack of roll stiffness in using stock sway bars while playing the nasa points classification game.

With my current setup rub marks indicating I used 100% of available travel including a fully smashed bump stop is quite common while autocrossing. when people set up a course that runs predominantly east/west at Packwood it can be rough as hell going across the grain direction in which the lot was paved.
We have used 900's with a 54106 1.25" RB front bar successfully. It is not beyond reason to fully utilize 1000's on a Miata with 275 Hoosiers
emilio700 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2014, 09:10 PM   #12
Junior Member
 
guttedmiata's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 438
Total Cats: -3
Default

Wish you guys were as light as me. This thread is making me wonder if I am running a heavy enough spring up front.
guttedmiata is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2014, 10:37 PM   #13
Elite Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Leafy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: NH
Posts: 9,093
Total Cats: 90
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by guttedmiata View Post
Wish you guys were as light as me. This thread is making me wonder if I am running a heavy enough spring up front.
With the avons and less front aero. Hard to tell. Some of its from straight up grip but some of it is just due to aero squat, which is where a 3rd spring setup would be cool.
Leafy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2014, 11:41 PM   #14
Junior Member
 
guttedmiata's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 438
Total Cats: -3
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
With the avons and less front aero. Hard to tell. Some of its from straight up grip but some of it is just due to aero squat, which is where a 3rd spring setup would be cool.
Hoosiers, but correct, no aero. However, more grip than the 275s and we are adding aero. At least springs are relatively cheap.
guttedmiata is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2014, 02:55 AM   #15
Senior Member
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Beaverton, OR
Posts: 737
Total Cats: 30
Default

What kind of weight are you guys running these rates with? I imagine a car on sm6s that weighs 1900 wet could get away with 700/400 quite well? Big RB bar up front, stock NA6 bar out back.
greddygalant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2014, 08:23 AM   #16
Elite Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Leafy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: NH
Posts: 9,093
Total Cats: 90
Default

My last weigh in was 2260 with a full tank. My class minimum is 2060.
Leafy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2014, 12:31 PM   #17
Junior Member
 
guttedmiata's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 438
Total Cats: -3
Default

See that's my issue. I have no comparisons at 1750lbs with 11.5" slicks on 12" wheels. Currently running 800/450 (I think ).
guttedmiata is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2014, 02:11 PM   #18
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (3)
 
emilio700's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,323
Total Cats: 1,344
Default

In general I'm always trying to run the softest springs I can and still have target roll stiffness. Lowered Miatas gain a whole bunch of roll moment from the lowered roll center. Couple that with lower offset wheels (effective track width increase) that lowers effective wheel rate then cornering at about twice the lateral acceleration of OEM (.85 vs 1.7g) and the giant rates are unavoidable. If the front suspension is bottoming and you have enough camber (good tire temps), try softer springs.

It's also course dependent. 700/400 seems to be the upper limit for standard weight street Miatas. On smoother race tracks, we run 800/500 on a standard weight Miata with no aero. Add big Hoosiers and aero and it's 800~1000 fronts
emilio700 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2014, 05:11 PM   #19
Junior Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 239
Total Cats: 4
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by guttedmiata View Post
See that's my issue. I have no comparisons at 1750lbs with 11.5" slicks on 12" wheels. Currently running 800/450 (I think ).
I'm at the too light end of springs. Similar weight but 600/350 springs. Added bunch of aero last year = Understeer hell. Some changes off season but no spring changes yet. Before the aero the car was pretty easy to drive. But had tiny 20" diameter FAs and 13x10 wheels. The difference in unsprung weight is stupid compared to the 23.5x11 & 15x10 I have now.

Don't take my results at events as how well the setup is. I'm pretty freaking slow. I lift way too damn much. <=

Another thing since this is autox talk, you have to consider your site(s). Some are pretty smooth, others...... I've driven another Prepared car that kind of skip over the surface due to the bumps. Softening that car by 100-150ish really helped that car.
mcfandango is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2014, 07:55 PM   #20
Elite Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Leafy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: NH
Posts: 9,093
Total Cats: 90
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcfandango View Post
I'm at the too light end of springs. Similar weight but 600/350 springs. Added bunch of aero last year = Understeer hell. Some changes off season but no spring changes yet. Before the aero the car was pretty easy to drive. But had tiny 20" diameter FAs and 13x10 wheels. The difference in unsprung weight is stupid compared to the 23.5x11 & 15x10 I have now.

Don't take my results at events as how well the setup is. I'm pretty freaking slow. I lift way too damn much. <=

Another thing since this is autox talk, you have to consider your site(s). Some are pretty smooth, others...... I've driven another Prepared car that kind of skip over the surface due to the bumps. Softening that car by 100-150ish really helped that car.
What shocks were on the prepared car? My co-driver at nationals is a real old salt, said this year was the smoothest lincoln had felt to him. He's a koni for life guy though, last year I think he was in an ES miata on yellows, and the year before in his crx on custom valved DA yellows. I was crewing for a friend running B-mod and one of the guys next to him was complaining about the bumps hurting, he goes "what bumps? I dont feel any bumps. Must be those Ohlins".

People always talk about running softer springs at lincoln, but out of any site I've run at it's got the grippiest surface so it wants the stiffer springs, but that only works with baller shocks.
Leafy is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
15x10 - 15x11 6UL @ 949 Racing emilio700 Wheels and Tires 151 06-02-2017 03:36 PM
elesjuan's mediocre 95 Miata adventure (google fiber edition) elesjuan Build Threads 8 02-16-2016 09:36 PM
E-Manage Base Maps faviles5566 ECUs and Tuning 0 09-04-2015 12:50 PM
E-Manage Base Maps faviles5566 ECUs and Tuning 0 09-04-2015 12:50 PM


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:53 PM.