Need suspension help, feel free to rip me a new one.
 

So I know this question is asked a million times but trust me, I've done a decent amount of research and talked to shop owners as well as e-mailed koni directly. I'm very stuck on what I should go with as far as suspension goes. Right now, I currently have flyin' miata vmaxx extremes and while they're great on the street, they're just not cutting it for me on the track. I'm seriously debating going with Koni Yellows with the sport valving as well as the ground control coilover conversion kit. After talking to the owners of a local shop (they specialize in miatas/rotarys) I've been seriously debating going with coilovers since they say it's always nice to be able to adjust the suspension to your liking. After doing research, I've seen people preaching that Koni Yellow/GC Coilover kit is a fantastic combo. I'm leaning towards the Koni Yellow/GC coilover kit option but I'm open to suggestions. Yes this is my daily driver for now but I'd rather have the suspension setup leaning towards track oriented. I spoke to 2 different people at Koni and they said the shocks should be able to handle 500/325 spring rates no problem but people online say I should go with the race valving if i'm going that high. I've been looking at a few coilovers but can't really seem to decide on which one to consider since I'm only looking to spend 1200-1500. As much as I'd love to buy a set of Ohlins, I just can't spend that much at the moment. I guess what I'm here to ask is, what do you guys think?

1) Should I go with coilovers or the Koni/GC option?

2) Is it really worth going with coilovers for the extra adjustments?

3) If I go with Koni/GC option, what spring rates would be ideal?

4) If I go with coilovers, what would you guys recommend?

Feel free to rip me a new one since I know this question is asked frequently, but i'm not just some asshole looking to be fed information because i'm too lazy. I'm an asshole looking to be fed information because the more research I do, the more indecisive I get :dunno:

If you're serious about track performance then continue saving for a little longer so you can get some Xidas. You will be much happier in the long run. They have suggested spring rates on the page but you'll be leaning towards 700/400 from what it sounds like. Assuming you are running ~200tw tires. The rates may sound high for daily driver duty but their behavior on the street is excellent as well. It's a bonus of getting high quality dampers.

Yeah I've looked into the Xidas a bit but I've seen a ton of people (as well as the guys at my local shop) highly recommend Ohlins. What's your reasoning for going with Xidas over Ohlins? And yeah right now I'm running Dunlop Direzza DII Star Specs which are TW200 but i'm looking at either the Toyo Proxe R888s or the Nitto NT01s. Not too sure yet what i'll be going with but we'll see once I do more research. Right now, I just don't see myself spending 2K+ on suspension. I know most people are going to say save up the extra money and do it but that's just not really a viable option for me right now. If 1500 was your absolute max, what would you recommend? Sorry to be "that guy" asking stupid suspension questions but I'm just trying to soak up as much information as I can before I pull the trigger on this purchase.

Xidas were developed specifically for the Miata platform. They are proven and well thought out, not to mention they are cheaper than the race valved Ohlins and you get to pick spring rates for your application. The race valved Ohlins are almost $2800 on Good-Win and Xidas are a tad over $2000. The Ohlins also have separate height adjustment and don't use helper springs so droop travel will be almost nothing.

If the suspension that is on your car right now isn't broken, then I'd still say the way to go is to wait a bit longer and save the extra $500 you need for Xidas. I used to have the FM Vmaxx Track Pack coilovers and if I had known then what I know now after switching to Xidas, I wouldn't have hesitated one bit to drop the cash for them.

In the $1500 range nothing really interests me anymore. Maybe someone else can comment.

Damn, okay well that's another new opinion I've soaked in that makes me even more indecisive. Thank you for your input.

Quick thought, is it stupid to buy used Xidas or is it best to just buy them new? I remember my friend saying he saw some used ones a little bit ago.

They usually hold their value pretty well so my first thought is to buy new so that you have the warranty and can ask 949 Racing about any setup questions you may have. Plus it will be the better Gen 2 version for sure. People still have good results with buying used ones though so if you're on a budget and a set pops up that is in good shape it could be an option.

Oh also, don't buy R888, get either NT01's or Maxxis RC1's, both of those are much better on track.

Damn it, now you have me seriously considering the Xidas. Are there any competitors to the Xidas or are those hands down the best in the $2k range? Also, would 750/450 be solid or should I just stick with the recommended 700/400?

P.S. Thanks for the heads up on tires.

I don't think there are any competitors in the sub $3000 range that really compete with the amount of time, effort and research put into them specifically for Miatas.

750/450 would be good as well. You could also email them, list out your modifications and intended use. If you're moving up to 100TW r compound tires I would go with 800/500 like the guide suggests. The difference on the street for daily driving between those two different spring rates are probably almost nothing. I have 1000/400 in order to run stock sway bars for classing purposes, and have driven the car to the local tracks a couple times. They still feel a lot more composed than cheaper dampers on half the spring rate. Wouldn't hesitate to use them if I were to get a daily driver Miata.

Right on man, i'll definitely get in contact with them and see what they recommend. I really wanna try TW100 tires but not sure if i'll be sticking with them. I've read they last roughly 30k miles but I doubt that with how hard people typically drive them. Although at less than 150 per tire it's really not that bad. I'm not 100% how common TW100 is for daily use but i'll do some research on that. Thanks for the advice man, it's much appreciated. You've basically sold me on those Xidas although i'm willing to hear what others have to say.

The proper way to do it is two sets of wheels, one for street and one for track, and a small harbor freight trailer and tiny hitch. That way you can bring some tools along too.

Any 100TW track oriented tire you will find is not going to do so hot in the rain or if it gets even remotely cold out.

Yeah that's what my pops and all his buddies do. I'm a somewhat broke college student so I'm on more of a budget than most people are although I still love my seat time. I'll look more into it and figure something out. Thanks again for the advice.

For what it's worth, if you take the passenger seat out and put your wheels in garbage bags, you can fit all four in the passenger seat area and jack/tools/supplies in the trunk.

That's what I did before I had a trailer and tow rig etc.

Seconded on the xidas in that price range. The ohlins you mention have too little suspension travel in the rear for the NA/NB in a lowered application.

Koni/GC

I had to check if this post was from 1996...

I am currently running Koni/ebay sleeves/summit springs. 450/350 rates (I don't run a rear bar). Thw ride is ok on the road and ok for autocross. Duno about track yet (May 3rd, so soon).

Unless you can get the Konis super cheap and used... I wouldn't bother. Even the cheap Tien coil overs I have ridden on were about the same.

I am currently saving up for Xidas.

Yeah that's probably what i'll do for a while, or try to convince my dad to let me put my wheels in his car if he has room.
Ahhh no shit? What makes the Ohlins so expensive then?
Lol, they aren't bad from what I've heard and they're still a popular option for a lot of people on a budget.
Damn, I'll probably be saving up for Xidas then as well. So if you run a sway bar in the rear, would you want to have stiffer or softer spring rates?

Two options. Xida's for $$$, or revalved Bilsteins with sleeves, springs, and extended hats for less $. Find the Bilstein thread. Do you have track experience? If you're a broke college student, you'd most likely be better off with a ~$600 Bilstein setup and more track time. Just get 200TW street tires. Hankook RS3's for example.

if you still access miata.net, sure...


if youre talking about Koni Races, ill give it to you. Koni sports, no, yuk.

I have koni/gc. don't do it. I bought the konis before researching, wish I would've at least bought FM stuff to begin with. after seeing what Xidas can do, I have two words for you.

Save up.

The thought has crossed my mind to at least upgrade to the koni race, but the nut behind the wheel doesnt want to accept that. at the very least, the bilsteins would be ok for you

Echoing what others said, it's silly to spend $1500 on suspension for a Miata. You're better off going with a budget Bilstein setup, or spending the $2k it takes to get the Xidas.

You also don't NEED the helper springs (and can add them later on too). The Konis don't have them, so apples the apples the Xidas are only $1800 including new NB tophats.

I have track experience but i've only been on track 4 times plus a couple AutoX events. All the track days were in my dad's car though so I've never been on a road course in a miata. I'm seriously debating the Xidas, I just have to see if I can come up with the funds.
Yeah I was talking about Koni Sports :ugh:
Right on, I'll probably just end up going with Xidas after hearing what everyone is saying.

That's a good point, plus I already have NB tophats so more like 1700 :)

Definitely get the helper springs.

You can see in videos of Xidas while on track they are doing their job. If you decide not to use them the main spring will come unseated when going over large bumps or rumble strips.

If you already have NB upper mounts then that saves you a bit of money and gets you below the $2k mark at least.

That's true, but I live in california so tax is going to be almost 200 bucks :yippee: But yes, I definitely plan on getting the helper springs.

Sure, helper springs are a good idea and worth it. I was just saying that without the helper springs you've got more of an apples-to-apples comparison, and you'd be better off going with Xidas without helpers over the Koni setup.

And oi, that sales tax tho...

Yeah dude, sales tax is a bitch. Especially with a 2000 dollar purchase.

Welp, you guys have convinced me. I'll be ordering the Xidas tomorrow with the helper springs and 700/400 main spring rates. I was speaking to Emilio for a while, and he was saying that the 949 sway bar combo is highly recommended seeing as I'd get a lot of over steer with my current sway bar setup (FM front and rear). He said I could temporariliy drive with the stock rear sway bar and the FM front sway bar. I was wondering what sway bars you guys are running with your Xidas and how you like them?

FM front with stock rear will be fine - it's gonna be such a huge improvement I wouldn't stress too much about having the sways yet - you can pick them up at a later date.

The FM front bar + 11mm stock rear and 700/400 springs gives you a roll stiffness of 3577 lb-ft/deg vs the RB 1.125 & MSM 14mm bar (the 949 combo) and same springs gives you a roll stiffness of 3882 lb-ft/deg: ~8% difference.

(for comparison factory springs + sways is somewhere around 1000lb-ft/deg)

Oh damn, okay that's comforting. He made it sound like I needed to get them asap. I still plan on getting them but I guess it's not as high of a priority anymore. Thanks for the help guys, I'm insanely excited to get my new suspension all set up.

Well he'll know better for sure, but it doesn't seem like there's as much difference between the sways as there will be the shocks/spring rate so you might as well do the thing that will make the most difference first.

Probably depends a lot on what tyres/usage too.

Yeah that's a good point, right now I'm running with Star Specs (TW200) but I plan on trying out some NT01s next (TW100) so I'll make it a priority to get the sway bars first. I really wanna get those coaxial billet mounts as well. I thought I was almost done putting money into this car for a while but we all know that's never gonna happen with any of our cars.

I'd just save up and go without NT01s. What wheel size are you running? Tire size?

Save your money on a hard compound like any of the Toyos (outside of the RR) or the NT01 (technically a Toyo), and just run your Z2s and go to R-S3s on a 9" wheel with the money you'd be spending on a 100TW. The difference in lap times between something like an NT01 and Z2 is about 2 seconds on 2 minute course, and you're just getting Xidas, so trust me... you have plenty of time to find out there without going to a dedicated R comp.

I was wondering that as well. For what purpose are you going to NT01's? HPDE trophies? Or are you going to be doing some sort of actual competition?

I'm running 15 x 8 +28mm off set and I'm running 205/50/15 star specs. I'll be driving the star specs for a while since they're fairly fresh but in the future I really would like to experience a properly set up miata with 100TW tires.
No competition or trophies, just interested to see what they're like. Hopefully i'll be competeting next year in some autox events but we'll see. I enjoy road courses more for obvious reasons but autox is much cheaper seat time although they're obviously two different categories of seat time.

Autox is a cheaper event, but usually not cheaper seat time ($50 for 5-6 minutes of driving at an autox, vs $250 for 1.5 hours of seat time at a road course HPDE).

But I get what you're saying, indeed.

Good point, but last autox event I went to there were only 4 other people besides me and the the instructor. We got an insane amount of seat time although it was 75 bucks. This was on Easter though so that probably won't happen again unless it's on another holiday. I could've potentially gotten 5.5-6 hours of seat time but I only got about 3.5 hours since I wasn't out there constantly. It was a great experience minus the fact that my battery got overcharged, heated up, swelled up, vented, and spewed battery acid in my trunk.

Just ordered a set of Xidas with 700/400 rates plus the helper springs. Now I just get to sit here waiting very impatiently for them to come.

You will not regret it.

Oh I bet, only thing is I'm gonna have to wait about 2 months to get the sway bar kit but i'm sure it'll be fine for the time being.

you will thank us for not going Koni/GC. That's seriously such a sub-par setup it should be illegal. It's easy to tell when a miata has that setup too: If you feel like your head is going to explode from the constant blunt trauma from hitting the most minute of imperfections in the road.

Hahaha are they really that bad?! And yeah man i'm already thankful you guys made me go that route. This is the most excited i've ever been waiting for any parts for my car, I can't wait to get them on the car. Once I get the sway bars and billet mounts then I need to hold off on spending money on the car for a few months and just focus on seat time. Having said that though, I'll be at Thunderhill tonight until Sunday so that should be fun! I just wish I had my Xidas to test out because I'm an impatient bastard like that.

They were designed to mimic stock shocks for compression coupled with tons of rebound.

Even with soft springs, the ride quality is poor and doesn't really offer much in terms of improved handling.

Having gone that way before I knew better, they aren't that bad. the car rides just fine with 450f/350r and damping adjustment set middlish. It is stiff, but not harsh, never had a single person complain about the ride and I have done 6 hour drives in it no problem.

That said, I am saving up for Xida crack anyway.

Sure they aren't as good as Xidas but they've gotta improve handling at least a little bith with how much people on a budget like/recommend them.
Yeah I don't see them being quite as bad as everyone makes them out to be but I think they just mean in comparison to the Xidas. All 3 miata drivers I talked to over the weekend all had Xidas on their car and highly recommended them. I can't wait for them to come in.

You would think...

Braineack is not incorrect at all. They are are as bad as everyone makes them out to be. They gained a following in the 2000's because they were at the time one of the best AVAILABLE setups at a cheap price point. Since then the suspension market for the Miata has grown enormously. There used to me no Xida's, no V-Maxx, no racelands, budget bilstein coilovers, no generic Asian coilovers. You had Koni's/GC, Ohlins, Tien's, and maybe only a few other suspension makers for the miata. If you wanted a budget performance coilover setup Koni/GC were the best you could do on a budget, they were still complete shit, but better then any other shit in the same price market.

That makes sense, they're at least better than racelands though right?

for performance, yes. for comfort, NO.

Having moved from Konis w/FM springs to Xidas, they are that bad even with full soft. I don't know how I dealt with it... raw ignorance of the improvements and tolerance for shittiness are all I can chalk it up to. I guess it can be bearable if you know nothing better, but once you know you can never go back.

Remove racelands from your mind. You no longer have to worry about such peasantry.

Have a few other things to finish up, then saving up for Xidas.

I have ridden in plenty of cars that ride way worse than the Koni with 450/350. Certainly not a buick with shiny new moogs in it (my friend has one) but they are better than some stock cars *coughsecondgenFitcough* come from the factory in terms of ride comfort.

My buddy's miata came with racelands and they were pretty fucking bad. The kony/GC combo is actually more uncomfortable?
I was talking to one of guys who ran Xidas and he said they're not comfortable on the street. Is this true or is he just being a pussy?
Interesting, well we'll see once I get mine installed. I still need to order the 949 sway bar kit once I save up some more money. One of the guys at the track ran with the racing beat front bar with no rear bar and set the front to full stiff while the rear was full soft. What are your guys' settings/setup?

No rear sway bar is useful for high-power Miatas at autocross because it helps in putting power down coming out of slow corners. My car has the 1.25" front Racing Beat bar with no rear (custom FCM Bilsteins, though, not Xidas).

--Ian

I'll mainly be running at road courses and my engine is mostly stock, so I'm assuming that means that a rear sway bar would be helpful?

AIUI, naturally aspirated road course Miatas usually use rear sway bars, so I assume so, but I've never set one of those up. :)

--Ian

Hmm... They're consistently hailed as a setup with superb comfort especially considering their performance capabilities. I feel the same way and wonder why your friend says this. It's really the best of both worlds.

Right on, yeah i'm definitely gonna be naturally aspirated for a while.
Right on, yeah he's probably just being a pussy.

asking for ride COMFORT input then calling someone a pussy for not praising a suspension that makes the car UNCOMFORTABLE is retarded.

do you want comfort or performance? you either get lots of one and some of the other, or vice versa. you don't get both. no one gets both. anyone that claims both is either lying, or has no idea what one of the two terms being discussed means.

that is all.

I love the xidas for their performance.
Not their comfort.

He says it makes his car un-streetable on 700/400 spring rates. My vmaxx extremes were very comfortable and performed just fine for me, I just hope the xidas give me a significant performance gain while maintaining decent composure on the street.

Different people have different standards for what "comfortable" means. I think my FCMs are pretty comfortable, but they're 650/375 spring rate and it doesn't matter what shocks you put on it, you'll never confuse a Miata with those spring rates with a luxury car. Digressively valved shocks are a big part of making the suspension perform well without being ungodly punishing over bumps, my FCMs have that as do (I believe) the Xidas.

So the Xidas will be "comfortable" in comparison to a cheap "performance" suspension. They will not be comfortable in comparison to a Mercedes Benz S-class.

--Ian