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New nylon/stainless bushing offering

 
Old 12-29-2018, 07:14 PM
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Default New nylon/stainless bushing offering

Seems someone is sorta maybe ripping off SadFab;

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Old 01-03-2019, 04:58 PM
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Is it really a rip off? The design is pretty different but same and goal more or less.
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Old 01-03-2019, 05:03 PM
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Seems like a good option. Its been really hard getting stuff from sadfab.
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Old 01-03-2019, 05:09 PM
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I agree, not trying to talk bad here, but sad fab is hobiests trying to help the community. Big difference than a business where productivity and customer service is key to keeping the doors open.

With that out of the way. Sadfab makes some great product.

This new option does seem like it has the potential to bind.

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Old 01-03-2019, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Twibs415 View Post
Is it really a rip off? The design is pretty different but same and goal more or less.
Yeah, I mean I guess there are really only so many ways a bushing can be designed. My post was really a little more tongue in cheek than it reads.
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Old 01-03-2019, 06:12 PM
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probably due partly, to offering help in the way of drawings. Another miata parts shop informed me, more or less, that they are going to have MY coil bracket, my design made in China. Pulled the drawing straight from the Sadfab site. but dont worry, they arent going to pass the savings on to you. im sure.
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Old 01-03-2019, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by ryansmoneypit View Post
probably due partly, to offering help in the way of drawings. Another miata parts shop informed me, more or less, that they are going to have MY coil bracket made in China.
Thats exactly what came to mind when I saw them, all of those free technical drawings on their site.
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Old 01-03-2019, 06:22 PM
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What starts with great intentions, can be quickly toppled by the less ethical..
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Old 01-03-2019, 07:50 PM
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Itís kind of bs that itís wrong as a consumer to want your parts in a timely manner. Many folks on here need the parts for actual racing and a waitlist of many months is not working.

Do we think sean is actually making a living off this? No way. If he was trying to, Iíd think heíd become a real company and turn the production over to the big manufacturers.
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Old 01-03-2019, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Twibs415 View Post
Itís kind of bs that itís wrong as a consumer to want your parts in a timely manner. Many folks on here need the parts for actual racing and a waitlist of many months is not working.

Do we thing sean is actually making a living off this? No way. If he was trying to, Iíd think heíd become a real company and turn the production over to the big manufacturers.
Not quite sure where the animus comes from, Iíve always seen Seanís for sale posts imply a long ďwhen I get around to itĒ lead time...

Now if he says itíll be 2 weeks and then that turns to 6 thatís another story
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Old 01-03-2019, 08:08 PM
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Sorry it sounds like I have bad feelings but yeah, the lack of customer service and The lack of having what you make in stock puts a damper on things.

Iv sent in a request, waited a while, got nothing back, sent a pm, got a response back 2 days later said maybe Iíll make them this weekend, said great no particular rush and well, thats 5 months ago.

Think I should ask again?

absolutly not. Ended up making it myself.
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Old 01-03-2019, 08:16 PM
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You're sounding like a real *****. It's not like you paid money for parts you didn't receive.


this thread is retarded and should be deleted for the **** talk direction it has taken towards people who positively participate in this forum.
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Old 01-03-2019, 08:37 PM
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Yeah this took a real weird turn. I posted this more as a PSA/heads up to Sean, not as a whining session.
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Old 01-05-2019, 05:32 AM
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Can't speak for others, but I am very happy with my dealings with Sean & Co.
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Old 01-07-2019, 11:58 AM
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Thrust washers are an interesting difference.

I measured the stiction of my superpro bushes when I was removing them to regrease and add grease nipples and I found the stiction from the thrust loading to be more significant than the stiction from resistance to rotation of the sleeve inside the bush.

Note that this was with just the OEM bolt torque, it would be worse with the higher torques that are needed on the front lower. Also, the Superpros have a reduced thrust contact in some areas to reduce this stiction, so I would guess stiction from axial loading would be even more significant with the energy suspension bushes.
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Old 01-07-2019, 01:48 PM
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Seems to be one big difference between these and the SadFab bushings, which is critical to how the miata suspension works, which is addressed in the SadFab kit but not these. I am very happy w/ the SadFab bushings I have (LCAs plus spherical sleeves for rear uprights). Yes, you have to wait and get in the queue, but suspension upgrades aren't something most people do in the spur of the moment, so having to wait a little bit to get them really shouldn't be an issue.
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Old 01-07-2019, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Tran View Post
I measured the stiction of my superpro bushes when I was removing them to regrease and add grease nipples and I found the stiction from the thrust loading to be more significant than the stiction from resistance to rotation of the sleeve inside the bush.
I'm curious how you measured the components independently, since this is more or less the exact opposite of the anecdotal observations of nearly everyone else who's looked at friction on the sleeve vs. the thrust face.

Either way, this kit is more in line with a Delrin setup. Delrin bushings already have the Delrin acting as a very low-friction thrust bearing where applicable.
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Old 01-07-2019, 04:21 PM
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Eh, only so many ways to make a bushing. I've released a lot of these design with the idea that if you have the ability to make them yourself, then you probably have the ability to measure a control arm bore, etc. My data just saves you from having to pull a car apart or buy spare arms to measure and do the R&D. If they used my data to make their kit, shame on them(Not implying they did this at all), but they would have made the kit anyway, because they have the means and skill.


Lets not forgot delrin bushings were being made by others, before sadfab was a thing.

Originally Posted by ryansmoneypit View Post
What starts with great intentions, can be quickly toppled by the less ethical..
Yup. Having said the above, cheap 3d printer kits and job shops have kind of ruined my utopia. Because of this I have pulled down a few of my designs and will never release another. Bushing dimensions remain, but things that are easy to farm out or 3d print are no longer being shared.

Originally Posted by Twibs415 View Post
It’s kind of bs that it’s wrong as a consumer to want your parts in a timely manner. Many folks on here need the parts for actual racing and a waitlist of many months is not working.

Do we think sean is actually making a living off this? No way. If he was trying to, I’d think he’d become a real company and turn the production over to the big manufacturers.
Originally Posted by Twibs415 View Post
Sorry it sounds like I have bad feelings but yeah, the lack of customer service and The lack of having what you make in stock puts a damper on things.

Iv sent in a request, waited a while, got nothing back, sent a pm, got a response back 2 days later said maybe I’ll make them this weekend, said great no particular rush and well, thats 5 months ago.

Think I should ask again?

absolutly not. Ended up making it myself.
I totally dropped the ball on you Tarek, and I apologize. You have an email.

Originally Posted by themonkeyman View Post

Not quite sure where the animus comes from, I’ve always seen Sean’s for sale posts imply a long “when I get around to it” lead time...

Now if he says it’ll be 2 weeks and then that turns to 6 that’s another story
He has every right. He is one of the few people I can count on 2 fingers that I have totally spaced out.

On your 2nd point: I used to be very good at setting accurate ETAs and sticking to them, but I am so overwhelmed now, I am having a very difficult time even forecasting out my backorders, let alone following up on them, for certain products (bushing kits especially).



Originally Posted by Tran View Post
Thrust washers are an interesting difference.
This kit competes with delrin kits, and to compare them to poly isn't fair. With delrin, the flange is the thrust face and functionally is no different than countersinking it with a stepped washer like A1 has done. The washer is nice, but I see it as an unnecessary expense. There's really no way to incorporate a thrust element with the poly kits with the spacial constraints we have to work with, unfortunately.

Originally Posted by Tran View Post
I measured the stiction of my superpro bushes when I was removing them to regrease and add grease nipples and I found the stiction from the thrust loading to be more significant than the stiction from resistance to rotation of the sleeve inside the bush.
First I've hard of this, and probably due to the crush sleeve being shorter than the bushing assembly, if I had to guess and based off what I've heard from other customers who have owned superpro bushes. This would also explain why you think what you've written below is accurate.

Originally Posted by Tran View Post
Note that this was with just the OEM bolt torque, it would be worse with the higher torques that are needed on the front lower. Also, the Superpros have a reduced thrust contact in some areas to reduce this stiction, so I would guess stiction from axial loading would be even more significant with the energy suspension bushes.
That's not how this works. If the bushing is made correctly, bolt torque has absolutely 0 to do with thrust loading on the bushing face as the steel sleeve is supposed to take the "crush" force from the suspension hardware, not the bushing itself. Hence the term "crush sleeve". If you get increased binding with increased bolt torque, then the steel sleeve is too short for the bushing assy.

Last edited by hi_im_sean; 01-07-2019 at 04:33 PM.
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Old 01-07-2019, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by afm View Post
I'm curious how you measured the components independently, since this is more or less the exact opposite of the anecdotal observations of nearly everyone else who's looked at friction on the sleeve vs. the thrust face.

Either way, this kit is more in line with a Delrin setup. Delrin bushings already have the Delrin acting as a very low-friction thrust bearing where applicable.
Perhaps the superpro bushes are oversized relative to the crush tube, but this is what I found.

I measured the stiction with 2 measurements.
  • The first was measuring the torque (with a torque wrench) that it would take to spin the crush tube in the bush. (I used a bolt and nut torqued up, so if I turned the head of the bolt, the crush tube would rotate).
  • I measured the thrust stiction by setting the wishbone level, torquing one bolt, eg front lower front, while loosening front lower rear, and measuring the force required to break the stiction by lifting at the hole which the ball joint attaches and compared with the bolt loosened. With a basic force distance calculation, I converted this into a torque.
The main objective was to make sure I'd sufficiently greased everything and to have some known OK stiction measurements that I could compare to later if I didn't want to take the wishbones off the car.

One other point to add, my car, being in the UK, is likely a lot rustier than the ones people have on here. After taking these measurements, I cleaned up the thrust faces on the subframe and painted them to reduce stiction.

Originally Posted by hi_im_sean View Post

First I've hard of this, and probably due to the crush sleeve being shorter than the bushing assembly, if I had to guess and based off what I've heard from other customers who have owned superpro bushes. This would also explain why you think what you've written below is accurate.



That's not how this works. If the bushing is made correctly, bolt torque has absolutely 0 to do with thrust loading on the bushing face as the steel sleeve is supposed to take the "crush" force from the suspension hardware, not the bushing itself. Hence the term "crush sleeve". If you get increased binding with increased bolt torque, then the steel sleeve is too short for the bushing assy.
Good points, but I would have thought it's a trade off between stiction and compliance, ie if the crush sleeve is a little shorter than the bush, there will be a compressive preload on the bush which while creating stiction, would also reduce compliance around load reversal.

It may be minor, but my thought was the extra crush of the crush tube and extra distortion of the subframe ears with a higher torque, would lead to more compression of the bush, ie more preload (and so stiction), though likely minor, I only meant to point out how it acted directionally.

Anyway, no denying a Sadfab sleeve'd kit with Energy Suspension bushings would be better than a set of Superpros, I was just pointing out that I'd found thrust stiction to be significant on the superpros and that if the sleeve'd Energy Suspension bushings had super low crush tube to bush stiction, then the thrust stiction may play a bigger percentage role.
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Old 01-08-2019, 02:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Tran View Post
Anyway, no denying a Sadfab sleeve'd kit with Energy Suspension bushings would be better than a set of Superpros, I was just pointing out that I'd found thrust stiction to be significant on the superpros and that if the sleeve'd Energy Suspension bushings had super low crush tube to bush stiction, then the thrust stiction may play a bigger percentage role.
Tran, in my measurements I found the same relationship between bolt torque and stiction. This was on a car in similar rust conditions to yours (also in Europe, but across the pond) and with a brand new set of Energy suspension bushes . The ES bushes are worse in this regard compared to SuperPros that have some superior design features. I think for any solution to work in our cars you will need to provide a new and smooth bearing surface to the bushing through either a subframe refurb or some kind of thrust bearing solution.

Considering the smaller but significant amount of surface area making contact at the subframe ears I'm surprised no one has made similar observations in this thread yet.
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