NOOB Suspension Help-KYB and S Techs?
 

First thing's first: suspension.

The car may see some autocross, but let's get real, it's mainly going to be my DD and serve for topless weekend trips with my wife (the car's topless, not her. Well, we'll see...;))

I promise I have searched for hours on this forum and others, but wanted to ask you guys. My budget is around $500 for suspension because I also need wheels/tires (post a thread there shortly).

I'm thinking KYB agx shocks (KYB AGX 8 Way Adjustable Miata Shock Absorber Front 741015 for Miata 1990-1997) and Tein S Tech springs (Tein S Tech Lowering Springs - SKM64-AUB00 - 90-98 MAZDA MIATA NA6C). I like the dampening option and have heard decent things about the KYBs.

People who have actually used this setup and have reviews holla at me!

I also have read about all the Koni yellow die-hards, which is what has led to my confusion.

So, budget is ~ $500. What's my best bet for a street DD that will see minimal track time, but plenty of spirited driving?

I autocrossed on KYB AGX with stock springs and FCM bumpstops and mounts and they suck. I've blown all 4 shocks and have to run them in full stiff settings. This was on my 90 not on my 99. Best bang for the buck is to look for MSM shocks with MSM springs.

Or buy this, https://www.miataturbo.net/miata-par...lsteins-70326/

They suck...If you "searched" you failed miserably

Ok, so it seems the Tein S Tech springs aren't the problem, but the shock.

How about the S Techs and Koni yellows?

I'm sorry, just kind of weary about buying used suspension, especially with eBay springs. But, if you guys think that is a good buy, I'll look into it.

Thanks

YES!!! It is always the shock.

NOOOO!!! The Konis are not a good shock. Too much rebound dampening which will keep the springs from pushing the shock back out (meaning you will stay on the rubber bumpstops too much) and too much high-speed dampening (which will give you a tooth chattering, annoying ride). MSM Bilsteins or "Hard S" valved Bilsteins will be wonderful, even if you can only afford to keep your stock springs for now. Much more control, much more contact with the ground, and much less floatiness on the roadway. You can get the Hard S '99-00 shocks new for around $125 each. Springs can be purchased from Summit Racing in any stiffness you desire for $35 apiece. Coilover adjusters can be bought on Ebay for $60 for all four (with useable springs in most cases). My "Hard S" shocks were used and purchased for ~$250 and made the single greatest difference of any modification to my car in terms of enjoyment, even when I had stock springs.

Understandable skepticism. Fear not.
Consider also buying a sway bar with the money you save. They do some nice things for the handling stability at speed.

:regurgitate sixshooter's post:

If you're weary, you really should take a nap.

I like my Flyin' Miata Stage 2 kit. For spirited DD and moderate budget I think they hit the mark nicely. The FM springs are known to be one of few "street springs" that offer enough stiffness for the amount of drop they provide, and they pair well with the Tokico Illuminas, whose adjustments are usable enough that I run different settings for street and track (3 front, 2 rear for grippy goodness, 2-1 for cushiness when I'm stuntin' and flossin'). I'm not 100% sold on the sway bars - at recommended settings the car seems borderline oversteery - but it's a very fun setup to drive, and I haven't played with the sway settings since I installed them. Ride comfort, despite doubling my spring rates from stock, is better than stock 65k mile springs and shocks were.

Sixshooter:

Do you have links to where I can find these MSM shocks or Hard S shocks? You mentioned you can buy them new, but every time I search this, I just get forums talking about them.

949 sells them new.
amazon sells them new
ebay sells them new
summit racing sells them new

go to google, type in "bilstein miata shocks" and pick the "shopping" tab and get a ton of hits there too. browse the classifieds here, and even now I think there are some used ones for sale.

Seriously, they're everywhere.

As for the tein/kyb: they are not good for anything besides reducing the gap between your fenders and tires. that's about it.

Ok, cool. I'll try that out.

Tein Flex for $850 with 30k miles. Good deal?

https://www.miataturbo.net/miata-par...ex-sale-70296/

This of course would probably be my first choice. Pm'd the guy. Just kinda worried ab the mileage.

Thanks for all the help guys. When you hear so many different things from so many different ppl, it begins to get a bit confusing.

18psi:

are these the Bilsteins you guys are talking about? if so, my stock springs will work with these? and when ready to upgrade springs, what should I look into?

Bilstein shocks

Thanks for all the help you guys, I can see the light at the end of the tunnel!!

the Sport, not the HD. IIRC? right?

yep, and you can select whichever ones you want on there.

Yea, it gives me the option of

90-97 HD
99-05 HD
99-05 Sport

So, I should go with the 99-05 Sports?

And btw, what does "IIRC" mean? Been seeing that everywhere.

What springs would you recommend to lower the car a bit. Good for DD and some weekend autocross?

99+ wont work with your stock springs.
iirc - if I remember correctly.
There is only one "spring" worth using: FM2. Otherwise you need to go coilover (or spring+adj perch).

If you read on fm's site (http://www.flyinmiata.com/index.php?...0%20%201990-97), it says if you want to use the MSM bilstein shocks, ride height will increase. That's not what Im wanting.

But, if i use the 99-05 sport shocks with those springs, it will lower it?

Sawzall make lowering springs.

its not the shocks that lower it, its the tophats. nb tophats are thinner/etc
the msm shocks are a tiny bit longer, but its very insignificant and likely won't even be noticeable in the grand scheme of things.

we have a thread regarding this topic. it even has a chart/measurements of each shock you're wondering about. seriously, search

Get the 99+ sports. They will work with your springs. The difference is one has a spring end that has been beveled flat and the other doesn't. I used my NB shocks with NA springs for a bit initially without incident. If it bothers you cut the last 1/4 turn of the bottom of the spring off to make it uneven. No big deal.

Ok, guys. Found this

2004 MSM Suspension - MX-5 Miata Forum

2005 MSM bilsteins with springs and bumpstops. What else would you recommend with this to put on my 1990?

Thanks for all the help again.

Does it come with tophats and mounting hardware/bushings? You could add those if you wanted, or reuse the NA style if not.

A bigger swaybar from Racing Beat or Flyin' Miata might be good too, if you are looking for something else to spend money on. But do the MSM parts first and see what that does for you before changing anything else.

The post says nothing about tophats or mounting hardware/bushings. He messaged me back and said they are still available.

So, if I get the shocks/springs/and bumpstops it all should just swap over?

yes

Perfect. Thanks for all the help.

Now, you guys mentioned even getting some eBay springs to lower the car a little. Any suggestions?

And some guys have different suggestions for spring rate for dual duty cars. Something like 7kg/6kg?

Just cut the springs on the MSM to get the ride height you want. I swapped MSM suspension to my NA and even with the NB tophats it still was about 1" - 2" taller than stock so I cut a coil or two.

Are these the coilover adjusters you speak of? How do I know what the spring rate is? 1990 1997 Mazda Miata MX 5 MX5 Scale coilover Springs lowering Silver 91 92 93 | eBay

I have a guy that's going to sell me his MSM shocks/springs/bumpstops but everywhere I read it says it will raise my car. So, if I can get these coilover adjusters I can lower the car to desired height....

**Update-- and just found NB tophats here to go with the installation http://treasurecoastmiata.com/i-1169...p-stops.html**

Yes, those ebay coilover adjusters are fine. And they come with some springs. You will be able to do some measurements and determine the actual spring rates when they arrive. You might end up keeping all four springs that come with the kit, or end up replacing one or the other pair with other rates. Or just keep the MSM springs on it.

The MSM hardware will not raise your car if you use the MSM (or any NB) tophats. That is why I asked if you were getting that hardware. It would only make about 1/2 to 3/4 inch difference if you had to reuse the NA ones though. You could take a 1/4 length of spring coil off to make that up if necessary. There is more than one way to get you where you are trying to go.

The ebay springs are likely to be a little higher spring rates than the MSM ones, but if you end up with both sets you can try them all and determine what you like.

I know it says 99-05 but hat's an NA top from the pic, so OP you might wanna confirm with TCM.

@qax

Thanks for noticing that!! I would have never known. I haven't ordered yet b/c they want $16 to ship which seems little extreme. Trying to buy a set off a member now...

Sooo, picked up the MSM suspension last week. Met up with a member of miata.net. Super friendly guy.

But, I got my eBay springs in that I was going to use to have adjustable ride height, and they dont fit. These are the ones I ordered, and posted this earlier asking if they would work Mazda Miata 90 97 coilover Adjustabl lowering Spring Kit Red with Scale | eBay.

I guess I should have ordered springs for NB since that's the suspension im using? Like these Fit 99 05 Mazda Miata MX5 Red Coil Overs Coilovers Springs | eBay

So, should I return the NA springs, and buy the NB ones?

Thanks for all the help guys. This should be all cleared up soon and Ill post pics of the build and before and after.

what doesnt fit specifically?

Well, I mainly picked up the eBay springs for the adjustable sleeves to use with the MSM springs, but they're too small for the shocks. Shocks just swallow the sleeves and dont rest on them.

I guess what other members are saying is I can use the eBay springs with the eBay sleeves, but if I want to use MSM springs, I would have to cut 1/4 coil off and not use the sleeves....

you dont use stock MSM springs with the sleeves lol
of course it wont work

Doh!


Yea, I finally figured that out after I sent the reply.

Can you elaborate on how to find actual spring rates?

I contacted seller on eBay and he has no idea what the spring rates are. I was able to google what the MSM rates are, so I would like to know what these eBay ones are to make my decision a little easier.

weigh bricks (or other stuff) and stack em on the springs and see how much it takes to compress em

ok, so, got on the rear suspension from the MSM suspension I picked up from another user. I just used those shocks and springs (didn't use eBay springs b/c they sent without wrench adjusters and was missing 2 of the 4 plastic perches) and my ride height in rear increased to 15 3/4"!!!

I measured 14" stock for the rear. This is not what I wanted and now I have no idea how to lower the vehicle. I know the springs should "settle" but I know they're not going to settle as low as I want.

Since the rear ride height grew so much we didn't even put on the front shocks/springs.

We're now trying to figure out what to do. I would like to get some higher spring rate springs that have adjustable ride height, or that will lower my car to a decent ride height. Someone mentioned ordering from Summit Racing?

What do you guys think my next step should be?

It is very possible we put the wrong shocks/springs in the rear. We had no instructions, and had to build the coilovers ourselves as they came as individual parts from a private seller from another forum. And, yes, we used NB top hats I purchased from another user on this forum.

Anyone have any real experience with swapping MSM suspension to an NA? Maybe the springs haven't settled enough since they haven't been on a car in over 3 years...

Before ride height

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1358659334

Installing MSM shocks/springs

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1358659334

After: Monster truck status

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1358659334

We used the smaller shocks for rear, with the smaller diameter, and smaller gauge springs thinking those would be the lower spring rate intended for rear. Two of the shocks have a orange paint blob on a coil of the springs we assumed meant for the higher spring rate front springs.

So you can understand the progression of my understanding the coilover conversion, read these. Your questions are not new ones. I had them too.

Read this from a couple of years ago:
https://www.miataturbo.net/suspensio...-hijinx-44740/

And this:
https://www.miataturbo.net/race-prep...s-no56k-61052/

Then this:
soon-to-be Suspension, suggestions? - Miata Forumz - Mazda Miata Chat Forums

And then this:
Sixshooter's Slow Torture™ Build, A Study in Automotive Masochism - Page 2 - Miata Forumz - Mazda Miata Chat Forums

Thanks Sixshooter! All of the links were a tremendous help.

**Edit - Ok, got the perches off. There was a slim epoxy coating on top of the perch. Lubed it up with some WD-40 and began hammering. Viola.

Now, I need to grind of the piece on the shock that prevented the perch from moving sideways.

Any suggestions on springs? From what I've learned I need 7" length, and 2.5" ID. Im thinking 400/300 (or 450/300). Want firm, but not jarring since the wife and I will be taking trips in it.

What do you guys suggest? DD that will see some autocross/track time.

Lol told you bro. You gotta cut the springs.

Lol, you were right!

We were so bummed we stopped with the rear shocks, but thanks to Sixshooter, I have removed original perches and have summit racing 450/300 springs on their way to rest on my eBay adjustable sleeves. Im gonna get the ride height right, as well as having a decent suspension setup for like $400!

Will post pics of before and after.

Anyone want some MSM springs? :bigtu:

Ok, guys. Did what sixshooter suggested and knocked my existing perches off, ground off the tab so my eBay sleeve would slide down and rest on factory notch that previous perches rested on.

Installed with my new Summit Racing 300 lb springs in rear and I now have an inch of play where my car is resting on my springs, and my shock is not even engaging. I need at least an inch more of spring, or to put my original perches back on and rest my sleeves on top of that so Im not bouncing around like a cholo. Im looking for performance, and this is not acceptable.

Still, if i do that, I won't get to the ride height I'm wanting which is around 12.5" in front and 13" in rear (what FM suggests for NAs). Reminder, I have a 1990 with MSM bilsteins, that are the longest shocks (http://fatcatmotorsports.com/igaller...ck_lengths.JPG).
What do you guys suggest? Do i need to go to an 8" spring, or replace my perches (of which Ive already ground the knob off the shock), or both?

Here is the sleeve rested on shock's notch where original perch rested

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1359083194

Here is the inch of play after my car was resting on its tires. We tightened top nuts till we ran out of thread. We're about an inch off....

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1359083194

It's probably too late now but you should have just cut the MSM springs and used em, or sold the MSM stuff complete and gone for something different. The shocks are the worst part of the MSM suspension, not sure if you'll be able to get them to work with aftermarket springs either.

Then why did everyone tell me to go this route? Now I have shocks that are too long and have cut the tab off to put the original perches back on so someone else can use them...

What if I sold the MSM stuff since I have the adjustable sleeves and brand new summit racing springs and bought the Hard S bilsteins? Would these work much better and give me the height Im looking for? http://949racing.com/bilsteinshocks.aspx

I dunno you'll have to ask them lol. I just have MSM suspension on my NA so I told you what I did, no experience with that other stuff.

I can't tell anything from either of your pics. Either take a pic of the entire assembled unit on the ground or take a pic of the assembled unit on the car with the car on the ground showing the top nut on the topside of the tophat and then from the underside of the same area with the car still on the ground.

Ok, here is the car resting. This is the rear passenger side shock view from inside the trunk. As you can see, we have wrenched the top bolt until we ran out of thread, yet there is still an inch gap.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1359153648

Here is the shock mounted from the underside. (Don't know why it uploaded upside down)

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1359153648

Here is an example of the finished product (note-this is a front shock since we have already installed the rears but quit so we could figure a better solution)

http://i49.tinypic.com/bdlgn4.jpg

annnnd, here is rear ride height as it sits with custom made MSM shocks/7" 300 lb springs, perch removed with eBay sleeve

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1359153648

From this chart it appears the NB Hard S shocks are significantly lower than my MSM shocks http://fatcatmotorsports.com/igaller...ck_lengths.JPG.

So, should I get these Hard S shocks and use my Summit Racing Springs (450f/300r) and eBay sleeves to make a coilover that will actually work with a lowered ride height? Hard Sport Bilstein Shock and Spring Assemblies

Hard Sport Bilstein Shock and Spring Assemblies

Don't throw anything out yet. Are the adjusters for the rears all the way down? Are they also oriented as in your top picture with the thick lip at the bottom? If the answer to both questions is yes, either remove the bottom adjustment collar (the locking one) since you don't need it if you are all the way down to the stop. Or flip the threaded tube over and go all the way down to the bottom. If you want to use only one of those collars instead of both of them you can drill and tap a hole in the one you will use and put a bolt in it as a set screw. That will get you even lower. The Fatcat chart shows a 1" difference between your MSMs and MY Hard S shocks, but my 7" 550/350 springs are easily an inch above the bottom of the adjuster and my height is down there where you want to be.

As for the topside of the tophats, I used collars (and big nuts) as spacers because I didn't use the factory NB hardware. I'm puzzled by you having the same issue since you are using all of the proper NB pieces (you are, aren't you?). But it is no big deal to add a collar or larger nut or two to space it correctly. I'll be going out to take a couple of pics of mine in just a second.

Everything you have is workable so hang on.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1359167145

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1359167145

Man, Sixshooter, you have been a tremendous help. Unfortunately, I'm not able to work on my car today, but I will try the things you have mentioned and give an update in the next day or two.

Hopefully once I get all this figured out I'll be able to help all the other newbs that want to do this conversion.

Do you have anything between the spring and the tophat? Some coil adjusters come with a top perch for the spring. If you had one of those on top of the spring it would need to come out.

Been doing some more investigating for you. Here is a pic of MSM Bilsteins with (supposedly) 550lb front springs that are 6 inches long. He could readily fit an inch longer spring in there at that height.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1359406496

These are six inchers and are 350. He has at least another 1.5 inch of adjustment there as well. Bear in mind that the softer the spring, the greater its length needs to be to function properly. He was at 12.5f 12.75r.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1359406496


But if you reach a point of despair after all of this, Summit has a generous return policy and you can reorder shorter springs in the place of these. Just beware of coil bind if they aren't long enough.

Great, thanks for the pics. I actually took the lock ring off my sleeves and dropped the other one all the way down and drilled it and put a screw in to work as the locking mechanism.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1359469534

Here is the finished coilover. As you can see, just one ring all the way at the bottom with a locking screw. 450lb f/300lb r. 7" springs.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1359469534

Im now at the height I wanted, but probably a little lower and I am riding around like a bouncy little ricer! Maybe I have gone too low? The pics you posted yesterday, is that of an early NA? My springs were about at that height on the sleeve the first time when I was still riding too high, BUT, I haven't given my springs time to settle.

Another thing, since my springs are so low on my shock, that leaves a LOT of my shock hanging out in my engine bay and trunk, thus they are now rubbing the top hats and making an awful sound. Could this be b/c I went so low my camber was effected negatively and makes the top of the shocks lean in rubbing the top hats?

Here is that awful gap I now see from possibly being too low and I bounce all over the place. Not like a nice bumpy ride you see in, say, race cars, but a pronounced bounce like you see kids that have cut their springs in their Accord. Im probably 12.5" f and 12 3/4" rear.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1359469534

You left out a piece and you are on the bumpstops and not the springs and shocks. There is a heavy washer missing from the bottom side of the tophat. It looks like this:

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1359485994

Did you have one of those?

It goes under this:

http://parts.arlingtonmazda.com/prod..._59929_std.jpg

That's a big bumpstop you've got there as well. Really big. That better be really soft material or it's way too tall and contributing to your poor ride quality. You need some suspension travel before the top of the shock contacts the bumpstop or it is no bueno.

Yea, we left out those pieces b/c the metal piece looked as if it was going to fall into the spring. Like, it's diameter is smaller than the ID of the spring and I was scared of messing up the spring. But we did leave the rubber piece.

As far as bumpstops, those are the stock MSMs. Should I cut some off? If not, what's a good bumpstop to go with? I know everyone recommends FCM, but that much money just seems ridiculous for bumpstops.

Also, is there a thread that shows how to assemble the coilovers? That would be a tremendous help!

That metal piece's middle hole is supposed to catch the shoulder on the shaft of the shock rod and go no further down. It makes the shock rod move when the car moves. Without it shocky no worky.

I would start by cutting half of that bumpstop off and see how much travel you end up with (I made my own hardware for that part from bits I had around). You need to be able to see some shock rod showing above the body of the shock. We'll get you there eventually.

Lol, i hope so. This is stressing me out.

So, to review. Cut my bumpstops in half, and place the metal retainer back in under the rubber, under the top hat.

Ill do all of that this weekend. But this should help with the bounce? What ab all the ear-piercing squeaking? You can see in the photo in my earlier post my shock rod is actually rubbing my tophats. I guess that metal retainer will solve that problem?

Thanks for all the help once again. I continuously read how great the MSM bilsteins can be for the money...that's what's keeping me going on this project instead of ditching the whole thing.

stupid question.

How should the metal washer be installed. The way it is pictured assuming the shock is in normal upright postion? Or the other way around?