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Old 01-19-2010, 07:17 PM   #1
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So I was reading it is bad to start racing on r comps when you are new to full track. It lets you develop bad habits. I was just wondering what kind of habits? and what other tire besides the nt01 should be used when first starting off on full track.
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Old 01-19-2010, 09:30 PM   #2
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It's good to start with less grippy tires so you get a feel for what you can't do when you start going faster. Most "bad habits" will be related to going into corners too hot, or not being smooth enough with your inputs. These mistakes will be more obvious with street tires, whereas r-comp grip might cover them up and keep you from learning to be smooth (i.e. fast). Sure, you can slap on a set of r-comps and hit the track and be faster than most other noobs in the noob group. But in a year or two, after those other guys have learned smoothness and car control and can drive their street tires to the limit and they move up to r-comps, they will probably be leaving you behind like you're chained to a stump.

Granted, everybody learns a little differently and this is a generalization, but I do have first hand experience with this. When I was a poor grad student and couldn't afford my own track car, my dad let me co-drive his 3rd gen RX-7 at a couple HPDEs. I had no significant track experience and there I was out on VIR in command of 500 whp and Hoosiers (much gripper than NT-01s). Experienced drivers with far less horsepower and less grippy tires were all over me like a cheap suit. Looking back at that, my dad had to have been crazy letting an inexperienced 22-y.o. out there in that car. Somebody with less self control might have tried to keep up with those more experienced drivers and done some severe damage.

Which brings me to the safety element. Street tires make lots of noise (if you're driving them right!) to tell you what's going on. R-comps have way more grip, but when they reach the limit, that edge is sharper and can be difficult for a noob to recognize until it's too late. You will be amazed that you took a corner so fast with nary a peep form the tires, then you'll think you can take it a whole lot faster next time, and next thing you know you're stuffed in a wall and the wrecker is dragging you out. [/fearmongering] But the higher grip means that when they do break loose the car is traveling at a significantly higher velocity than when you spin on street tires, thus the consequences to you and the car are usually more severe. Everybody spins eventually. It's kind of like rock climbing- if you don't fall occasionally you're probably not really pushing yourself. With less grip, it's safer to make the mistakes that noobs will inevitably make.

Also, since r-comps are softer, they are more easily flat-spotted by noobs who haven't yet learned how to brake and turn properly.

There are also aspects of vehicle engineering that are magnified by the higher grip of r-comps. They allow faster stopping and therefore put more stress into brake system components. Higher lateral grip puts more load on your suspension, etc. These things can unmask other inadequacies of your car, and you don't want to worry about that stuff when you're supposed to be having fun and learning.

Get some seat time on street tires. When you've got them squealing through every corner, when you can recover the car when the tail wiggles out mid-corner or when you get a little crossed up under braking, then consider moving up to R-comps. Something like the 'kook RS-2 or Kumho XS would be a good tire. Either should keep you from being the slowest guy out there, and they are grippy enough to harass some expensive cars through the turns. They will also give you plenty of feedback so you can learn how to handle your car.
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Old 01-19-2010, 10:49 PM   #3
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Old 01-20-2010, 12:10 AM   #4
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Old 01-20-2010, 09:41 AM   #5
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If you have an "innie" then run street tires, "outties" run r-comps.
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Old 01-20-2010, 10:53 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hustler View Post
If you have an "innie" then run street tires, "outties" run r-comps.
& trannies run 205 r-comps.

Seriously, outside of all the **** and ball funniness, ScottFW's point was a very good and valid one. The breakaway characteristics and communication you get from a good uhp street tire should not be overlooked. The XS is a towering street to track tire, doesn't give a whole lot up to the same sized r-comp, and gives way more feedback.

Look at it another way: does your club mix run groups? If so, do you want to be with a newb or inter driver that doesn't have track or car knowledge on r-comps? Or would you rather him be on a uhp tire? Chances are, he will be more consistent on the uhp, and you and your precious will be safer, period.

I don't want a plethora of wheels in my garage, I'm sticking with two sets, one 8 and one 9. The 9" 6UL is dedicated to the 275 A6, the 8s will be used for track and street. When I burn the NT-01s off the 8s, I will probably be going with a uhp, like the RS-3. Too bad not more uhp tires aren't made in 225/45-15.

Edited to add: to the OP, another benefit to a uhp is that you can drive it to the track, one less thing to worry about. I street my NT-01s, but we all know what that does for it's longevity. I am lucky enough to have another daily, with a bowtie in the front and a tailgate in the back.
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Old 01-20-2010, 11:11 AM   #7
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The R-comp comparison is too wordy and convoluted. R-comps hold a lot more energy, so when you go in too hot or just screw-up in general, worse things happen.
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Old 01-20-2010, 11:47 AM   #8
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Old 01-20-2010, 11:58 AM   #9
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So you're telling us they don't work good on gravel?
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Old 04-12-2010, 08:12 PM   #10
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ok to bring this back what is a good NON rcomp tire to start with?

iIve been looking at the following in 205-50-15 because they dont make many in a 225 tires will be going on a 15x8 6ul
I do wanna step it up to a 225/45/15 later on though if it makes any difference in things
Dunlop Direzza Sport Z1 Star Spec

Bridgestone Potenza RE-11

Yokohama ADVAN Neova AD08

Kumho Ecsta XS

Falken Azenis 615
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Old 04-12-2010, 08:53 PM   #11
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In a tire comparison last year the kumho XS won in the dry test, but it came in third overall because of it's wet characteristics. i think a lot of people are beting on the hankook RS3 to be the best wet/dry choice, but I don't think the rs3 has been in any official comparison.
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Old 04-12-2010, 09:04 PM   #12
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I am currently on RS2 with 6 total full track hours and RS2 do get greasy after couple hot laps. I've learn how to recover when my rear start to break loose with RS2. My friend that ran Falken 615 had no issue but they also get greasy after couple hot laps.
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Old 04-12-2010, 10:56 PM   #13
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the RE11 came in 1 in that test and tirerack (i know some people hate them here) have a 100 rebate on the RE11. I'm not tracking as much as I use to due to grad school and just bought a set. Much easier oon the pocket book vs R-comps too.
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Old 04-12-2010, 11:15 PM   #14
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ive driven on kumho xs and those are badass! feedback is just amazing. overall, performance vs. price its a win.
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Old 04-12-2010, 11:22 PM   #15
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gforce sports are very driveable and comunicable man.
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Old 04-14-2010, 01:20 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by proughj View Post
ok to bring this back what is a good NON rcomp tire to start with?

iIve been looking at the following in 205-50-15 because they dont make many in a 225 tires will be going on a 15x8 6ul
I do wanna step it up to a 225/45/15 later on though if it makes any difference in things
Dunlop Direzza Sport Z1 Star Spec

Bridgestone Potenza RE-11

Yokohama ADVAN Neova AD08

Kumho Ecsta XS

Falken Azenis 615


Wha wha what?! I cast my vote for the Toyo R1R 225/45/15

An eggcellent choice! The above list is very good. The Falken 615s are a great learning tire, but not as grippy as some of the others. On a big SCCA autox course, let's say 70 seconds long. The difference b/w a 615 and an RE-11 might be around the 2-second mark.

We did a comparison in STS2 a few years back (WDCR SCCA). We ran on 615s, then swapped to full-tread RE01Rs. 1.5-2 seconds difference.
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Old 04-14-2010, 11:01 PM   #17
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azenis tend to overheat on track. push them for 2 laps and they become greasy. great street tire though and relatively cheap.
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Old 04-14-2010, 11:24 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pitlab77 View Post
the RE11 came in 1 in that test and tirerack (i know some people hate them here) have a 100 rebate on the RE11.
I've never used them on a track, but the RE11's predecessor, the RE-01R, is an excellent tire when pushed to the limits of street driving (ie: tearing up and down the side of Palomar Mountain and through the canyons in Julian on a hot day), and it's not altogether awful in the wet or cold, either.
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