So I got some Konis--Now what
 

Suspension NOOOB here :noob:

What do I need with Koni Sports?

Option 1 is to slap on my existing Eibach springs, get some better bump stops, and call it a day. For cheap. And I can do this immediately.

Option 2 is to get Ground Control coilovers, and new bump stops. This can't be done until after my engine is built.

Option 3 is what the wise people from teh internets tell me what to do.

Option A is to get FM rear shock mounts, and can be added to any of the above. I also see talk of using NB top mounts in the rear to gain 1" of shock travel. What are the drawbacks?

School me.

Go with option 1 until after you've built the motor, then reevaluate. However, be careful with using the Konis with those existing Eibachs and new bumpstops...you may have too much bump travel available. I recall Shaikh talking about the Konis bottoming out before running out of bump travel, and recommending some bumpstop spacers perhaps? Perhaps that was with his older bumpstops...he may have something a tad longer in his newer line-up. Might be wise to give him a call at FCM anyway and talk options.

1/2 inch more travel with the NB tophats that are not as easy as just bolting them up.

Since you can do #1 immediately, and you would use the bumpstops for the GC's later anyways, go with #1 and save for #2.

Ben, good call on the Konis.

I wouldn't even instal them until you get the GC's and ISC rear mounts (forget NB).
Do it once and do it right, hell I know you got the patience to wait. Once you have everything, swap it out and go straight to someone who can corner-weight your car.
Any idea what spring rates you would go with?

You already have FM sways right? I can't remember if it was FM or RB....

Damn I swore we had a section for this type of stuff. ;)

Link to mounts please.
I have FM NA 1.8 sways in my garage. I've had them for at least a year, un installed. I've been considering selling them (just never got around to it) in favor of a RB tubular front.

I like the reasoning. What's the problem/issue with the NB hats?

Thanks, this is on the lines of what I was thinking. I appreciate the head's up on the travel issue.

Thanks for the help.

http://www.iscracing.net/Miata_suspension.htm

Just get the rear ones at 1.5" which is their standard.

I can't really say much about the FM bars, but I love my RB hollow bar, so I have to support the RB hollow bar choice (and the sway bar brace kit kicks ass). When you decide what spring rates you want to run let me know, and I'll try to help you out with the proper rear bar for your spring rates.

Besides-you will have no issues selling the FM sways to someone over at Mnet in no time. If you are buying a new RB, talking to Brian at goodwin directly will save you some money, great guy.
Good luck man, suspension is the best thing I've ever done to my car.

http://clubroadster.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11373

Yes, it is CR.net, but there is some good info there in that thread and what is linked to. Just gotta sift through the noise.

Shaikh has some kind advise against using a mount like the ISC, IIRC, and I don't attribute all of it to wanting to sell his own product. Basically, the ISC, while increasing travel, doesn't help in the other area the NB mount does, which helps isolate the transverse spring motion from the transverse shock motion. There is a scan of the factory test data between NA and NB on FCM site. If you want to diy, fitting NB mounts to Koni shocks is doable, just search m.net.

IIRC, Rob did something with his NA mounts to increase travel as well, but also doesn't address the above issue.

If the aim is for simply more travel, sure,go with ISC. If the aim is to have slightly more predictable and proper control, something along the lines of an NB mount of the FM rear mounts may be what you're after.

Tons of info on this at m.net. I think I read literally thousands of threads before finally going down the path I did.

This is what I don't get
I'm kind of worried that this would result in a way too low car (without coil overs I mean)

The NB mounts just raises the upper spring perch. You wont gain travel, but you will get about 3/4 inch lower without loosing any travel.

I'd verify that your bump stops are long enough, and slap them on. You'll know what your ride height is, and you can worry about mounts later.

Exactly as stealth said, this is what they do. To low or not is dependent on you.

I think the no gain travel argument is bs, if you were going to drop that low or lower (and everyone is, unless you are a m.netter) you have effectively gained travel from what you would have lost by lowering to that height without them.

That said, I have coilover sleeves, so if I don't like the height, it is far easier for me to raise the height then for someone without.

I've been reading thru m.net. I liked this guy's advice

:hustler::D
 

Shaikh's comment has merit in theory. I posted something about this in Dan's shiny tein shock hat with the spherical bearing. In theory the entire shock assembly (shock, spring, perches) needs to move as a unit. There is some lateral motion as the control arms compress. BUT in practice, that curved movement is so small that it has a negligible effect on the actually seating of the spring. This is why so many have gotten away with running these solid hats. Both the NA and NB mounts suspend the top shock rod mount to allow this motion in the assembly - as well as isolate road noise.

I've been running the ISC mounts on the rear of my street car since Xmas and I can't tell they're there except for the fact that I'm not nailing my bump stops on hard hits. And like I said before- we raced on them and they did wonders for suspension travel, never failed and had no ill effects on handling. ISC proved that on both there SCCA Miatas - setting blistering laps in two classes. They don't sell shit that doesn't work.

Here's some pics of a proper Miata coil over setup. Notice how the upper perch is NOT part of the upper assembly chassis mount. The mount stays fixed and the rest of the parts move as a single unit where ever they need to. How does this work w/o adding some room at the top of the hat for travel? Easy, you size the shock to fit the ride hide/application.

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...ce/shock01.jpg
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...ce/shock02.jpg
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...ce/shock03.jpg

Sticking a spherical bearing in the top of a solid hat for shock rod mount really does little or nothing. Below is the diy approach to achieve some additional travel, like the ISC mounts, just not as much. Burn out the suspension bushing on a stock mount and weld the two pieces together. That's good for another 3/4".
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...d/P7160002.jpg

Who makes that coilover Rob?

go with option #1 and be happy for awhile

Do you have a rec on bumpstops?

It was built custom (using some bilstein parts) by Shocktek for our NB we ran in motorola/grandam cup. Unfortunately Shocktek wasn't run as a business to the same caliber as their engineering. That said- these parts exist from race suspension shops. But I have a feeling they're more than what most would be willing to pay for a suspension on a Miata- and they're overkill for a street car IMO... but then I'm running the ISC pieces. ;)

Ultimately I want to build my own custom setup using circle track shocks. These shocks are a steel compared to what the aftermarket feeds IF you have the ability to do some fab work. You can get an threaded aluminum body shock, spherical bearings on both ends, and spring perches for <$200 per corner. And you can invert mount them so the rod is the unsprung weight. The rod mount to the lower control arm is just a matter of spacers for bearing (and maybe bolt sizing). Up top you can remove the center section of the NA mount and build a center based on that- it'll just bolt right in to the chassis mount. Easy! :D

Check out the goodies here

I agree- #1 and call Shaikh for the bumps so you get the best for the application.

http://randysracemart.com/smalbodalthe.html

is this what your talking about? wow
$10 for custom valving!!! Custom length...damn!

I know. It would take some work, but IF you did it right, you would have suspension PRIDE like nobody in the diy miata suspension universe. :pitlab:

Lots of other cool stuff there too. That's where I got my killer rad for $220.

I've never used the ISC mounts, but I've run the FM mounts and they SUCKED. They jingled and rattled constantly. Every time the rear suspension compressed, they'd make noise. My buddy had some on his SM2 car, and his were so noisy, he thought that they'd sent him bad bearings form the get-go. He called FM and got new ones sent to him, and they were even louder. I'd go with the Fat Cat mounts/ sleaves/ stops, and I intend to on my next project.

FCM bumpstops and mounts Ben :)


FWIW the FCM top mount is little more than an NB mount with some clever hardware, which will get you ~3/4" lower on fixed springs, or allow you to raise a coilover that amount and have more travel for a given ride height.

I've had FM mounts on my car for a couple of years. I know at least 10 people locally who have them. I've never heard your complaint before.

I'm wondering if there wasn't an issue with your install?

They're not exactly rocket science. Perhaps FM changed bearing specs or suppliers. Or maybe we got a bad run of CNC work on our mounts...

Why not just go with the FCM coilover kit at that point? It works out to be the same price as GC + bumps, but you get FCM advice.

That's looking like the other option at this point. I like the $100 sleeves + eibach race springs + NB hats method for the cost savings compared to FCM or GC coilovers.

I'm concerned about too low ride height with the NB hats and w/o coilovers.

I sit a 12.5"F and 12.75"R with Konis on the top perch with FM springs....dunno how low Eibach's drop you...

They have a coilover kit? I'll have to check that out..

FWIW my GCs are set at 5/8" above bottomed out with the FCM mounts, your car doesn't look very low really, I think you'll be fine.

I must say, it is pretty bad-ass!!!
I wish I had the knowledge to piece something together, that would be a badass set-up.

If you can get some cheap ebay sleeves that were mentioned here, you can pickup some cheap QA1 springs in many lengths and rates from Summit Racing. Would probably be worlds better than running the Eibachs which you could sell for $100.

Frank

My car isn't gangsta low, but it is pretty frikkin low. I'm not into the SoCal drop. And I bang my cat on speedbumps enough as it is.

That's looking like the plan

I'm running some eBay sleeves with QA1s on the R Bilsteins. BUT - here's what I found. The sleeves fit the front shocks perfectly with very tight tolerance between the sleeve and the shock body. Though on the sleeves are loose on the rear shocks. And it doesn't matter which goes where. I believe this looseness is what causes a lot of the failures you see reported on the eBay sleeves- the sleeve doesn't seat on the lower perch ring flat and the load is then concentrated at one point causing the sleeve to ultimately crack/split. So I just used the original lower perch and sat the sleeve on that. Still room for adjustment - just not so pretty. Anyway- you need to make sure you get the sleeves that fit the Konis since IIRC they've got a narrower body than the Bilsteins.

I did something similar on my last CRX. The ebay sleaves were about 1/2" to big for my Koni bodies, so I found a piece of ABS pipe that was an exact fit between the shock body and sleave ID. In hindsight, I probably should have machined a new mount, but this solution was passable in the time frame I needed to get the car rolling, and the guy I eventually sold the shocks to had been using them exactly like that for about 20k miles.

I learned a trick from Mike Kojimas in the SE-R world back when GC/AGXs were the hot combo. To stop noise and movement of the sleeves you wrap the strut/shock body with duct tape until the sleeve fits over it very snugly. Put a coating of RTV on the tape and slide the sleeve into place. Then you seal around the top and bottom of the sleeve to prevent water from entering and you are set. It will last the life of the shocks/struts and you'll never have any problems with them.

I spent the last 75 minutes searching thru suspension threads on m.net. I'm now leaning towards Koni threaded sleeves with Eibach Race springs and NB hats and some sort of bumpstops. I think this will give me the maximum possible travel and not make the car stupid low, while still not being terribly expensive.

So, rec's on bumpstops that are maybe a bit less than FCM?
Rec's on where to get the Koni threaded sleeves? I not only fail at searching, but also am not 100% sure on what the correct model sleeve is for the miata sport shocks and 2.5" springs.
Finally, I'll need help picking the spring, both length and rates. I'm thinking like ~350 front with the corresponding rear. I want to stiffen the car up, but not make it harsh. I also want the rear to hook.
Then finally finally, we can deal with sway bars. But that's later. I'm still leaning towards the RB hollow front with stock rear. I'll need to sell my FM bars first. Or I'll just run the FM bars.

I'll solicit suspension swappin' help once it's time, at my dad's shop where there's lifts and air tools. We can make a tech day thing out of it.

Ben

Front springs: http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku

Rear Springs: http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku

That shouldn't be that harsh. They've got 350 for the front too, and 250 for the rear in those sizes.

Don't get hung up on Eibachs. Your paying for the name and the nice red paint. ;)

Frank

I had to go softer from 400/300 to 300/250. The city roads were just too brutal for the first rates.

Frank,

You'd need a big ol' front bar and no rear bar to make that close to neutral feeling. Maybe a 450/300 spring combo instead, still big front bar & no rear, but a bit less oversteery, still alright with pitch.

I personally love the additional grip in the rear that comes with no rear sway and an LSD.

edit: I personally wouldn't go that high on rates on my (or Rob's) Bilstein R's, but I keep hearing high rates on Konis aren't too bad on the street.

I've got revalved bilsteins w/ Fatcat sleeves from Shaikh with an FM front and no rear (on my NB). I'm actually running 375/300 and it's quite neutral.

Frank

I believe it on an NB. Probably the 1" front bar? Not sure whether Ben has sitting arond the 7/8" or the 1". 375/300 with the 1" front and no rear would likely be nice on Ben's car, I imagine.

Ben, not sure if you've used it or not, but I highly recommend Shaikh's spreadsheet for playing around with spring rates and swaybar sizes to get a feel for their effect. It saved me a lot of trial-and-error (not to mention money) in getting my setup how I want.

Thanks fellas. I'm down with whatever springs as long as they work and are cheap.
I've been searching and searching. Still don't know where to pick up the perches or what bumpstops to look at besides FCM.

Ben, yes I've used FCM's spreadsheet before.

This will show you a picture of what you need. You need the assembly on the right in the top picture.

Part numbers are:

15.29.04.003.0 for the spacers

80.0000.0006 for the perches

80.0000.0005 for the sleeves

Supposedly, they are cheap here, but you'll have to call for prices. I heard about 6 months ago that 4 of each totalled ~$130 from them. They have bumpstops too, and I've heard Koni-branded stops are cheap. Ask them which ones would work for you when you call about the sleeves/perches/spacers.

edit: found prices here; in fact, these parts are pretty cheap.

Thanks--Really helpful.

And BTW, I may be in your area Sunday. Might could drop your axles by. Depends on how much I can get done tomorrow.

That'd be great, just let me know if/when you're heading by.

I have 2 250lb springs for sale if you want them. I'd rather trade for parts though. I'll measure the lengths tomorrow if you're interested. That way you only need to buy 2 more springs...and you can get those from the honda-spring-trade-ring.

Actually I have 4 with perches...but I'm keeping those for myself.

If you decide to go as low as a 350# spring in the front, and use the Koni sleeves, buy these. Then you won't need the spacers/adapters for the front. Buy before June 30 and use the paypal code to avoid shipping charges.

See if they are rear springs.
Dick

LOL @ "as low". I think that's the range I want to be in. So you can run 2.25" without the adapters? Then why get the adapters and 2.5" springs?

Hey, I'm even lower than 350 (at 300) but so many here are running 500+ that I guess we're softies.

The advantage of 2.5" springs is that they're way easier to come by, so you can buy them cheap used, and swap rates all the time.

Buy these 350# for the front, and buy Hustler's 250# for the rear (assuming 8" length) and you're golden. That'd be a slick setup, especially since you already have an FM adjustable front bar (1" right?). That adjustment, plus the ability to remove the rear bar, should be all the adjustment you need to tune the balance of the car right to your tastes.

So, to confirm something:

If I have a set of Koni sports, and buy four of each of these part numbers, I would then need to source springs, bumpstops and tophats/mounts for a decent setup, correct?

^ Correct, although you can do a "decent setup" with the stock NA mounts, so long as you find an upper spring isolator.

So I got my suspension dilemmas figured out!

I got a set of Tein coil overs instead. :LOL:

Flex's or ban.

No they are SS. But if you'd like to buy me some Flex I would run that instead.

Either way, it will be a huge upgrade from my 70K stock shocks w Eibach springs.