Notices
Suspension, Brakes, Drivetrain discuss the wondrous effects of boost and your miata...
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by: 949 Racing

Sway bars and alignment with Xida GS

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old May 24, 2018 | 05:41 PM
  #1  
Andy Gamble's Avatar
Thread Starter
Newb
 
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 8
Total Cats: 0
From: Lancaster County, PA
Default Sway bars and alignment with Xida GS

I just finished installing my shiny new Xida GS, as well as poly bushings (modified using Teflon tubing as sleeve bearings), so now I need to figure out what to do about the alignment and the big front sway bar that I already had. This is purely a street car for now (albeit an exuberantly driven one).

The Supermiata alignment page mentions that the street alignment works best with a bigger front sway bar, but the Xida GS page mentions that they ride best with stock sway bars. I have a Racing Beat tubular front bar on the car (which, btw, is in theory 1.5% less stiff than the 1" solid bars...). Judging from the short test drive with a completely randomized alignment I am, to say the least, thrilled with the ride quality even with the big bar. I've got my ride height set at 5-5/8 front and 5-3/4 rear.

So, should I just keep the big sway bar and use everything except the ride height from the Supermiata street alignment? Would there be a significant benefit to switching back to the stock sway bar other than making the already-excellent ride quality even better? With stock sways, what the heck do I do with the alignment?
Old May 25, 2018 | 07:37 AM
  #2  
AlwaysBroken's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 817
Total Cats: 20
From: TAMPA, FL
Default

Go read the how to Xida thread. I asked the same question about running xl length shocks with bigger front sways and doward said that it was recommended for ride comfort mainly. Running a bigger (but not unbalancingly large) front sway won't have negative consequences.

As for the alignment, I don't think that is suspension dependent. I don't even have Xidas yet and I've liked their alignment for some time on my garbage suspension.

Last edited by AlwaysBroken; May 25, 2018 at 07:39 AM. Reason: autocorrect
Old May 25, 2018 | 10:15 AM
  #3  
Magic_Smoke's Avatar
Newb
 
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 15
Total Cats: -1
From: Portland, OR
Default

You may not be able to get to the advertised alignment settings at a different ride height - lowering the car makes a lot more camber available than there is at stock height (I tried this myself). Alignment will certainly affect (perhaps as much as anything else) the handling characteristics of the car, but without first getting a sense for how it feels with the parts you want to run, I would not make any changes. Go with alignment numbers anywhere between supermiata-spec and stock, put on the big front sway, see how it feels. Make adjustments later if you don't like something. Alignments are fairly cheap!
Old May 25, 2018 | 11:05 AM
  #4  
Andy Gamble's Avatar
Thread Starter
Newb
 
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 8
Total Cats: 0
From: Lancaster County, PA
Default

It does seem that two new and relevant posts have been made to the How to Xida thread since I read through it. That makes me feel a little better about keeping the big sway bar. I wouldn't want my Miata to be TOO soft and supple!

I doubt I'll have a problem getting to the street alignment camber settings. When I put everything back together I just put all of the alignment bolts roughly in the middle of their range, and I ended up with easily visible negative camber.

So unless I hear from someone who knows better, I think I'll go with -1.4° front, -1.0° rear camber; 0 toe to slight toe out front, 1/8 toe in rear; a bunch of caster; and my current height of 5.625 front, 5.75 rear.
Old May 25, 2018 | 01:06 PM
  #5  
scottns's Avatar
Junior Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 145
Total Cats: 9
From: Central MA
Default

I'd definitely keep the bigger front bar. I have the FM Fox, hollow Racing Beat front, OE rear with 949 endlinks and 949 street spec alignment. No complaints. The car just goes..... and you should be able to adjust the Xida to the softer end of the damper setting to get a comfy ride when you want it.
Old Jun 12, 2018 | 10:27 AM
  #6  
AlwaysBroken's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 817
Total Cats: 20
From: TAMPA, FL
Default

Also, make sure the sway bar is properly lubed. My FM front bar uses poly mounts and it was all dry and seized up when I took stuff apart to install the Xidas. Dry mounts will increase front stiffness a lot. Car used to be noticeably understeery, now is neutral again.
Old Jun 12, 2018 | 01:38 PM
  #7  
Andy Gamble's Avatar
Thread Starter
Newb
 
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 8
Total Cats: 0
From: Lancaster County, PA
Default

Indeed. I went to great lengths to ensure that there are no squeaks or binding on this suspension. I bought a bunch of PTFE tubing, bored the inside for a snug fit on the steel sleeves, and (with great difficulty) bored the poly bushings for a tight fit on the tube. So there are basically Teflon bearings between the bushings and sleeves. I also greased everything thoroughly and installed grease fittings, with grease holes drilled through the bushing and the Teflon. The sway bar got Teflon tape, grease and grease fittings.

I got the car aligned as described, and I'm very happy with it. The combination of great ride quality, high roll stiffness and laser-quick turn in is extremely impressive. I haven't spent enough time near the limit of grip to say anything definitive about the front/rear balance yet, but it's close enough to neutral that the couple of exuberant turns I've taken have not shown significant oversteer or understeer.
​​
Old Jun 12, 2018 | 11:17 PM
  #8  
Magic_Smoke's Avatar
Newb
 
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 15
Total Cats: -1
From: Portland, OR
Default

After a good weekend autocrossing, my mind is now clear: one needs a tire pyrometer to make educated adjustments to alignment and setup.
Old Jun 14, 2018 | 05:37 AM
  #9  
Dietcoke's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 209
Total Cats: -171
From: Richmond Hill, GA
Default

Originally Posted by Magic_Smoke
After a good weekend autocrossing, my mind is now clear: one needs a tire pyrometer to make educated adjustments to alignment and setup.
Very true for road course, not so much for autox.

Autox courses simply aren't long enough. If you try to even the heat across the tire at an autox, you're probably giving up time to just running more camber.
Old Jun 14, 2018 | 10:03 AM
  #10  
Magic_Smoke's Avatar
Newb
 
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 15
Total Cats: -1
From: Portland, OR
Default

Originally Posted by Dietcoke
Very true for road course, not so much for autox.

Autox courses simply aren't long enough. If you try to even the heat across the tire at an autox, you're probably giving up time to just running more camber.
If the tire is happy, isn't everybody happy? Why would an even temperature profile lead you astray?

In my case, I've got a slightly lowered car (on FM Fox coilovers) and I measured 15 degrees hotter at the outside front. More camber seems like the right answer - alignment wouldn't give me any at this height (I'm already at 2.1 degrees), so we reduced the front sway stiffness (going from stiff to soft on the adjustable FM sway bar) to allow more roll and thus camber gain - temps improved to 10 degrees difference, and the car felt noticeably better. In this example, the temperature pointed me in the right direction, and led me to make a big adjustment that would not have occurred to me just from reading forums. I intend to get myself a pyrometer!
Old Jun 15, 2018 | 12:10 AM
  #11  
Dietcoke's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 209
Total Cats: -171
From: Richmond Hill, GA
Default

Originally Posted by Magic_Smoke
If the tire is happy, isn't everybody happy? Why would an even temperature profile lead you astray?

In my case, I've got a slightly lowered car (on FM Fox coilovers) and I measured 15 degrees hotter at the outside front. More camber seems like the right answer - alignment wouldn't give me any at this height (I'm already at 2.1 degrees), so we reduced the front sway stiffness (going from stiff to soft on the adjustable FM sway bar) to allow more roll and thus camber gain - temps improved to 10 degrees difference, and the car felt noticeably better. In this example, the temperature pointed me in the right direction, and led me to make a big adjustment that would not have occurred to me just from reading forums. I intend to get myself a pyrometer!
Because on a 30 second course you may be spending 6 seconds at the tire's limit and 24 seconds doing other things. It's those 6 seconds that matter when you're talking camber vs carcass temperature, not the other 24. Thus, you make the most out of when the tire is at its absolute limit, instead of trying to satisfy the overall tire carcass - because on the short course, it will always be faster that way.

Of course, on a road course, youll just melt the tire. AutoX wisdom only.
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
meBlaise
Race Prep
14
Jul 28, 2017 09:49 PM
itskrees
Suspension, Brakes, Drivetrain
10
Jul 9, 2013 03:33 AM
itskrees
Suspension, Brakes, Drivetrain
4
Aug 14, 2012 11:42 PM
soviet
Suspension, Brakes, Drivetrain
28
Jul 24, 2011 10:54 AM
bryantaylor
Suspension, Brakes, Drivetrain
3
Sep 2, 2008 12:29 AM




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:01 PM.