Track/ButtSechs Suspension Help
 

there are many threads like this... but this one is mine. :loser:

Situation:
Clean slate 10ae that will be an FI track car eventually. Right now doing canyon driving revamping all components to prepare for engine mods down the line. Car is not my DD and I sorta consider it an 80%r. In that I mean if I can get 80% of the performance of the big boys toys with 50% of the cost or less... that's the option I'll chose. Function > form in every way. Would like to lower the car enough to help performance but no more.

102k miles on the stock struts/springs. I'd like to buy on a budget. Every dollar that I can save here I can put into the bank for the safety gear revamp and engine work. A perfect world would put me at under a grand for everything, but I am a realist.

My thoughts after searching/reading:
-Getting a set of vmaxx coils and sending my oe billstiens out to be re-valved and cut down. get a set of ebay coil sleeves and some 550ish lb springs. Sell the vmaxx coils when i get the bills back from some suspension shop that does amazing rebuilds at a snails pace.
-getting koni sports with ebay sleeves and 500ish lb springs.

I'd like to stay near the budget and I want to be able to have the ability to corner balance. If you were me and you had a good condition stock car that needed the aftermarket touch done to everything within the next 24 months. What would you do. Keep in mind I could potentially leave the car on jack stands while the struts get sent out but I'd rather take the 200 dollar hit and stay driving/AutoXing.

Oh btw. First post.

If you ever type "touge" again I will ban you.

AST/XIDA is the only way to go. If you can't afford that I'd recommend Bilstein HD's and 400/325 rates, no more because there is too much high-speed rebound damping and it makes me puke.

Its what the zomgdrift crowd calls twisty mountain roads in an effort to seem more in-tune with japanese culture. Kind of like how kids around here refer to the car as a Eunos roadster even though they've probably never set foot in a country where it is actually called that.

TL;DR -> Kid wants to sound cool, needs to realize that this isn't club roadster.

Edit: You ninja editing son of a bitch :giggle:

Fixed for a more miata friendly thread title. :makeout:

When you say too much high-speed do you mean in the stock valving configuration or just in general (even after a professional revalve)?

The truth is I could afford the AST/Xida stuff but it would delay other portions of the car so significantly it would put off actually getting on the track with this car. In the end that's the reason I bought this car... my last track car just turned into an upgrading obsession and I couldn't afford to modify/improve and track the car.

I have a set if springs I just pulled off my car. 550lb 6" Eibach and 350lb 7" qa1. Ran them on my stock and then revolved bils before going 700/450. Pm me if you're interested.

For a street/track car they are quite good. While the ride was a fair bit harsher withthe stock valving it was by no means unbearable. I dd'd te car for a year on them before getting Bernie to revalve the shocks.

Edit: oh and I ran them on eBay sleeves too and was able to get a 12" 12.25" f/r ride height with isc top hats. You can buy proper sleeves though from isc racing. I would do that over the eBay sleeves.

thanks for the insight. I'm definitely interested in the springs. I need to do a bit more reading about setting up sleeve kits on any of the given dampeners. I've gone through the threads and there seems to be a lot of NA discussion but not all that much NB specific discussion. For example using NA struts on an NB and how that will work out (IE koni's) with the top hats (I know the threaded part of the shaft is shorter on NA struts).

On that subject you're suggesting ISC top hats on an NB in lieu of the NB top hats? Judging from this I assume that the ISC's provide even more stroke than the NB's. Can you elaborate?

I'm in sorta a weird spot because if I do want to have my stock struts rebuilt I'll have to send them off. So really I'll need an interim setup that can hopefully perform a bit better than the partially blown stockers.

Struts?

$1800 is not a lot of money for the last shocks you'll buy for the car. If you gave me the option of $2000 in shocks, brakes, or engine, I'd take the shocks.

Any other grammatical corrections you'd like to clear up? :hustler:

2k+ is not a lot of money on most cars... but I'm not ready to jump down the slippery slope of 2k worth of suspension on a 5000 car quite yet. Or at least I don't think I am. I've also had a bit of experience running (rebuilding would be a better term I guess) ast setups on other cars and I'm just not ready to go down that road quite yet.

I will however take your suggestion to heart. I'm just sitting and looking at a lot of tired parts on my car that need attention. That 2300 dollar xida coil over setup isn't going to do me all that much good when I am in dire need of wheels/tires, brakes, full safety revamp, etc etc. Unfortunatly with blown stock stuff my timeline is a little screwed up for funding a cash purchase roughly 1/2 the value of the car I just bought 2 months ago.

so then do like I'm doing and never drive the car until everything is done, don't cut corners.

Hmmmm, Life moves a bit too fast for me to do that. I've been there and this car was the solution to that problem.

Thanks for the suggestions guys. Off to do some more reading. :2cents:

Are you going to be a cool new member, or one of those ****** who cries all the time and tells everyone how much they don't understand? I'd track a car on all-seasons again if I had to and if you gave me a choice of all seasons on Xidas that I could keep vs. shit-shocks and r-comps, I'll take the shit rubber and brakes with Xidas.

How much are you willing to spend on the "$5000 car"?

Fortunately for me I stopped trying to be cool when I blasted through my 20's, so I guess I'll be whatever type of member I end up being.

I have no idea how much I'm willing to spend. What I'm getting at with this question is the most important part of this car for me is getting out on the track and having fun. Spending an extra 100% for a part that nets me 15-20% more speed/fun isn't what I'm trying to go for. I want to get some experience in the miata with a well balanced setup that isn't just riding on bump stops. I want some room to grow and I'm not scared of selling off stuff to move to a different setup and taking calculated losses so that I can obtain the primary goal of keeping the car off jack stands. That being said, if you truly feel that anything other than a xida level setup is a total waste of time... then that's something I need to seriously consider.

I'm not looking for a carebear answer or attitude, that's why I came here. While the crass nature of these boards can turn people off, the sheer no bs knowledge is why I'm here. Despite the fact that I have to read through the faced of angry typing, I truly appreciate the help.

Well my first peice of advice is to erase that $5000 number. "We" crushed a lot of Vipers this weekend, a lot of them. I played that money game for a while and after I started tracking the car, especially in its current form, I realized the car was not an investment but more of a box to put expensive racecar parts in.

I can't tell you how much faster the good shocks made me, I'm not that great of a driver, but I immediately picked-up time on a couple tracks and the car is much easier to drive. I've had 5-sets of shocks on two cars, only two were worth a shit being the two I recommended.

I'm not ready to spend XXXX on a car I bought for XXXX.

snore.

noted. I think i'll take the ride 5 miles down the road and let Emilio give me the hard sell.

I know man. Being married and justifying the purchases can be a real bitch. :vash: Oh well, I take it out on her by destroying the tires on her Mazdaspeed3 every chance I get. :giggle: It's just simply about balance. I can only spend so much a year before the boss starts to notice. Unfortunately she's quite car savvy and knows a thing or two about my expensive hobbies. Mark my words, having a gear head wife is a curse.

Mention me holding a gun to your head. I have a ride along yesterday to an inquiring mind and he'll probably buy a set too.

Im on ebay sleeves, koni sports, 525lb/335lb springs. Its only margainally harsher than stock units with 153k miles on them. I got the konis free, so Ill see how much damage I can do with $200 total invested. Hopefully I dont embarrass any high dollar suspension guys:giggle:

Honestly if budget is such a concer, find some cheap stock non bils to run. Send SD your shocks and buy my springs. Keep the nb top hats. I just ran isc for a tiny bit more stroke but if you're shortening the shock bodies then it dosent matter between the two. I suggest proper sleeves over the eBay ones. It will cost about $130 for a set of four real sleeves and perches.

For the price you can't really beat the above listed.

*

Or he's looking at it the right way. If hes a track novice and doesnt plan to spend more than 2-3 days a year out at the track, his money is better spent on SEAT TIME than high end suspension. High dollar suspension is only worth it, if you possess the skill to actually fully utilize it/are out driving other setups. The SM guys seem to get by fine with tweaked stock stuff w/sleeves.

So until he can drive the car 10/10 (or even 8/10) and know why/where better suspension will help him shave time, it cold easily just act as a band-aid to cover up driving mistakes.

Or we're not even talking about the same thing.

We are though, if you want to talk about "running with the high dollar cars", its much more than how much you have dropped in mods. The truly fast guys have more money spent on track time/tires/brakes than they do mods. Using that as justification to purchase high-end stuff is just to prevent buyers remorse

More grip is more grip, period. It's not like a tire where you get more slip angle, it helps the car keep the tire on the ground.

The money the SM guys save in hardware is surely surpassed by set-up. If you want to compare a run of the mill SM then add a few seconds to that comparison.

The most expensive suspension in the world couldn't get me around Spoolin2Bars this weekend, but it sure was easy to drive my car.

...and the things I'm learning today I never could have learned if I didn't do things like double the power, double the tire grip, and double the suspension grip. I still see Xida/AST as the fundemental, ground floor of any car that will see the you want to make better than the factory.

God, this is such a horrible rationalization. SM suspension is shit. The only reason ANYONE considers it to be even slightly good is because everyone is forced to run the same shitty shocks, and therefore people have figured out how to go fast in spite of the shitty shocks.

If you bolted a set of Clubsports to a Spec Miata, it's worth a minimum of 1 second at any 2-minute track in the country.

Buying suspension twice saves you money now and forces you to spend it again later. Take it from the guys here that have bought a lot of stuff twice - you want to buy the good parts first.

:idea:Winner winner chicken dinner. Until you figure out how to go fast with basic stuff you aren't going to see the value in the higher end stuff

Not arguing with you there. But 10 track days is worth 15-20 seconds to a complete novice. Much more speed/dollar ratio than suspension alone

Fully agree with here you unless the OP ends up hitting the track one or two weekends a year. Then he will be slow regardless, likely wont even run a timer, and wont ever fully utilize Xidas or bettr.

A lot of people buy "track" suspension/parts/etc and only end up doing parade laps in C group, get bored, run out of money, or wrap it around a pole on a "touge" run

Thats why I brought up that point in my first post. How serious he is about the track, how many days he plans, is he already a track veteran, etc. If anything he should take it out bone stuff first, let the local hot shoe drive his car while he rides in the suicide seat and see if he pisses himself

Is there a reason SD Bilstiens haven't been mentioned much? I thought they were just as good as the $2000 package you're all talking about. Good thing about those is that he can buy them piece by piece, and save money by using Ebay sleeves and used 2.5" springs. In the end, if he's lucky/careful, he could only end up spending ~$1200-1500.

SD seems to be very backed up right now. Theres a whole lotta hoopla on m.net

I did. ^^^. Seems like a much more logical choice for someone on a budget and onl does 2 or 3 track days a year plus daily driving.

Well eBay sleeves are like $20, I don't want too much for my springs and he already has oem bils. He shouldn't need to spend more thank $600 total if he uses his oem bilstiens.

I have AWR sleeves and collars. :jerkit:

Just go crazy and buy some Moton's. So the suspension matches the price of the car. This is good stuff. Here the product link:
http://motonsuspensiononline.com/ind...f39c32a3755000

Yes definitely buy Motons, AST did.

Custom penske triples or bust

lol

As do I.

If that's truly the case, then my suggestion would be to spend the money you have now on the bare essentials to get the car onto the track safely, whatever that may be. Then get out there and DRIVE IT until you get the money for the fancy suspension and other bits.

That's basically been my strategy since I bought my car in Nov. I've had a blast all year, and (because I'm such a driving :noob:) I'm still dropping 2-3 seconds at our local tracks, even though I've only done a few basic mods. Anyway, JMHO.

What I'm saying is you shouldn't shy away from buying expensive parts simply because they're approaching/exceeding the cost of the car itself. You need to look at it as total expenditures vs. other cars. What, an STi msrp is like ~33k? Doesn't mean you need to spend anywhere near that to smear shit on it at the track. I'm not talking about the right way to develop good driving habits, that's understood and we're on the same page as far as that goes.

This. I tell people how much I've spent (not nearly as much as some of you guys) on my car and I get asked why I would spend more than the car is worth.

It makes me want to punch babies.

If you're serious, buy the expensive shit.

they already have Moton stickers on the door of the ast shop.

Because I didn't buy the car for it's equity.

My simple point was, how much you spend should really be dictated by the end users main goals/objectives. THe OP has yet to chime back in, so who knows.

And yes, I've already spent more on minimal mods than I have spent on the car itself. Race parts cost the same regardless of what platform they go in (sans zeeee german cars which get asshole taxed)

Even if you don't get the best, get the absolute best you can afford at the time. When you are talking about using the car on track, it is not just about having the fastest setup. Dependibility means a great deal more to me than absolute performance (im not that great of a driver). I have spent twice the amount on three different suspension setups than what I ended up paying for the custom revalved SD Bilsteins and adjustable perches. It also sucks to change out the suspension 3 times. I did it all myself so it didnt cost much, cant imagine if I had to pay for someone else to do the swaps for me.

damn it by budget coils started to bind after I lowered the car an inch. Shoulda got something better!

The first time you replace a shell, you'll understand how little the car is worth in relation to all of the stuff that actually makes it fast/fun to drive/reliable.

I agree. I did just that this year and the core shell itself is worth next to nothing.

I've thrown away a few vehicles at the track so I now what you are saying. Purpose built track vehicles and budget dont really belong in the same sentence. Some are better than others, but in the end its a losing battle if you are really keeping up with the total tally of dollars spent. Which is why I asked the OP his true intentions of the car, but it appears he is busy on a touge run in the twisties y0, because he has yet to answer.

BUt I agree with you, the miata is great because its a cheap, light, easy to work on place for cool parts and shit.

Wow... I was MIA celebrating my 1yr anniversary with my lovely wife. I sorta expected to come back here and see a pile of burnt embers from the flaming. I'm very happy that my rather stupid choice of words early on hasn't devoured this thread.

Some people are keying on my comments of the price of the car vs mods. I think I may have given the wrong impression on this. I know this car is/will be an obsession. I estimate spending around 15k'ish within the next 5 years on the car (including the purchase price). So I think within that budget going over what is necessary will happen several times.

So that being the case... I really do hear the logic of those saying buy once buy right. On the other hand the car needs love in several areas before it's track ready. 2k on suspension now means possibly another calender year before I'd feel comfortable on the track. (In contrast I can spend 2500 and revamp brakes, suspension, safety setup, and some maintenance items) My goal was really to be on track for 1-2 track days per month starting next spring.

So re-evaulating goals and plans:
-10-15 track days a year and some AutoX and canyon driving thrown in
-Cost is a factor in my decision (goal is under 1000 if a decent setup is possible for this price... if not budget will be more)
-A little worried about the rebuild cost and frequency on a 2k set of coil overs.
-DD comfort is not a factor. I do however have a very bad low back so I will need the suspension setup to at least not bottom.
-Seat time, Seat time, Seat time... I've got lots of track experience with FWD (LoL FailWD) cars but not much with RWD.
-Proper Stroke and Performance is Key. I don't need the best of the best because i have lots to learn, but proper balance and setup ability is very important
-DIY is very attractive to me just because I like to get my hands dirty
-I do all my own work but I live in an apt so I can't leave the car in pieces. This is part of the draw to getting a stop gap setup while I possibly have my stock bills rebuilt.
-Don't mind taking a calculated loss in an effort to get/stay on the track. IE take a 200 dollar loss on a setup so that I can stay on the track for 6 more months.

So... Sorry for the really long winded post. This is just something that keeps turning over and over in my mind. The help is greatly appreciated.

This is all nice but lets simplify it.

You CAN afford the good stuff

You are going to be tracking the vehicle

Eventually you'll want the good stuff anyways


Now if you didn't have the money which alot of us don't thats a different reality.

Prolonging your other mods like turbo, built motor, etc can wait. I stomp on turbo/supercharged miata's regularly at local auto-x events with Xida's and 15x9's with rs3's. With the suspension dialed in I am having BOATLOADS more fun then if I cheaped out and spend my money on a turbo kit.

And if you think about it a proper track worthy turbo kit is around 6 grand if you consider mods that are needed such as big radiator, inconel studs, oil cooler etc etc, built motor, another 3 grand minimum. Thats 9 grand you have to spend for a solid reliable forced induction setup. At that point and extra grand for suspension is pennies.